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Thread: Watching Moneyball

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  1. #1
    OlafTheBlack Dan's Avatar
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    Watching Moneyball

    The very first part of Moneyball when it shows the A's losing to the Yankees in the 2001 playoffs made me realize that I do not miss the bulky hulks blasting it out of the park. I am really glad that MLB has taken steps to cut down on PEDs. Yes, the game isn't as active now as it was then, but I LIKE that. It brings the focus back to skill and execution. I don't know about others, but I appreciate that.
    The one constant through all the years, Ray, has been baseball. America has rolled by like an army of steamrollers. It has been erased like a blackboard, rebuilt and erased again. But baseball has marked the time. -- Terrance Mann (Field of Dreams)

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    The Boss dougdirt's Avatar
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    Re: Watching Moneyball

    PED's or not, it takes a whole lot of skill to even make decent contact with a baseball thrown by a professional pitcher. The skill and execution part were never missing from baseball.

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    Re: Watching Moneyball

    Quote Originally Posted by dougdirt View Post
    PED's or not, it takes a whole lot of skill to even make decent contact with a baseball thrown by a professional pitcher. The skill and execution part were never missing from baseball.
    This is what was so mind blowing about Bonds IMO. He was thrown minimal pitches in which to hit, but when he did get one, he squared it up. Seems like he NEVER missed a mistake. Crazy good hitter.
    Everything that can be counted does not necessarily count; everything that counts cannot necessarily be counted.

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    We Need Our Myths reds1869's Avatar
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    Re: Watching Moneyball

    Quote Originally Posted by TSJ55 View Post
    This is what was so mind blowing about Bonds IMO. He was thrown minimal pitches in which to hit, but when he did get one, he squared it up. Seems like he NEVER missed a mistake. Crazy good hitter.
    Bonds was the most incredible hitter I've ever seen. One of the saddest things about his association with PEDs is that many people can't appreciate how great he was. I watched him in Pittsburgh as a young player who clearly wasn't juicing yet; he was obviously a special talent. I've never seen his combination of plate discipline and bat skills.

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    Re: Watching Moneyball

    Quote Originally Posted by reds1869 View Post
    One of the saddest things about his association with PEDs is that many people can't appreciate how great he was.
    This is the saddest part for me too, except not because people don't appreciate how good he was before PED's, but because Bonds used PED's in the first place. We could totally be enjoying him being one of the greatest ever, instead he was pretty much the greatest ever and enough of that was because PED's that people won't enjoy that (including myself).

    Had he stayed clean, and dominated, we'd be talking about how great he was instead of how big his head was (literally).

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    Re: Watching Moneyball

    Quote Originally Posted by reds1869 View Post
    Bonds was the most incredible hitter I've ever seen. One of the saddest things about his association with PEDs is that many people can't appreciate how great he was. I watched him in Pittsburgh as a young player who clearly wasn't juicing yet; he was obviously a special talent. I've never seen his combination of plate discipline and bat skills.
    Surprisingly enough, I have never sat around enjoying the talent of cheating, a-holes in my entire life. Frankly, I think it's sad that people give guys like that any attention at all.

    Bum

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    We Need Our Myths reds1869's Avatar
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    Re: Watching Moneyball

    Quote Originally Posted by Bumstead View Post
    Surprisingly enough, I have never sat around enjoying the talent of cheating, a-holes in my entire life. Frankly, I think it's sad that people give guys like that any attention at all.

    Bum
    Then I'm surprised you like baseball at all. It is a game full of cheaters and always has been.

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    Re: Watching Moneyball

    Quote Originally Posted by TSJ55 View Post
    This is what was so mind blowing about Bonds IMO. He was thrown minimal pitches in which to hit, but when he did get one, he squared it up. Seems like he NEVER missed a mistake. Crazy good hitter.
    This game, I believe, is one of the most impressive hitting feats ever. Bonds took 5 swings in his 5 at bats. He fouled off one pitch, and hit 3 home runs and a double.

    I, too, wish he'd never sullied his career with PEDs. He wouldn't have broken Aaron's record but he still would be appreciated as one of the game's greatest ever players.
    The one constant through all the years, Ray, has been baseball. America has rolled by like an army of steamrollers. It has been erased like a blackboard, rebuilt and erased again. But baseball has marked the time. -- Terrance Mann (Field of Dreams)

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    Re: Watching Moneyball

    Quote Originally Posted by Dan View Post
    This game, I believe, is one of the most impressive hitting feats ever. Bonds took 5 swings in his 5 at bats. He fouled off one pitch, and hit 3 home runs and a double.

    I, too, wish he'd never sullied his career with PEDs. He wouldn't have broken Aaron's record but he still would be appreciated as one of the game's greatest ever players.
    Says he struck out, so it would have to be more than 5 pitches wouldn't it?
    "And why do false truths persist, getting passed down the decades as if they were fact? It comes back to the same point: People believe things that are wrong because, individually, people rarely investigate their own beliefs, particularly when what they believe makes sense intuitively. Even more so when those around them agree with them." -K.F.

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    Re: Watching Moneyball

    Quote Originally Posted by Bob Sheed View Post
    Says he struck out, so it would have to be more than 5 pitches wouldn't it?
    Five swings over however many pitches it was.
    The one constant through all the years, Ray, has been baseball. America has rolled by like an army of steamrollers. It has been erased like a blackboard, rebuilt and erased again. But baseball has marked the time. -- Terrance Mann (Field of Dreams)

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    Re: Watching Moneyball

    Quote Originally Posted by dougdirt View Post
    PED's or not, it takes a whole lot of skill to even make decent contact with a baseball thrown by a professional pitcher. The skill and execution part were never missing from baseball.
    Maybe not compared to average joes, but compared to non-juicers (or non freaks of nature/science), execution became much less important. The game was very different.

    I just remember how annoying Mark McGwire's HR's were that had a hang time of what seemed like 10 seconds because he hit a pop up to LF, that turned into a HR.

  19. #12
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    Re: Watching Moneyball

    Quote Originally Posted by TOBTTReds View Post
    Maybe not compared to average joes, but compared to non-juicers (or non freaks of nature/science), execution became much less important. The game was very different.

    I just remember how annoying Mark McGwire's HR's were that had a hang time of what seemed like 10 seconds because he hit a pop up to LF, that turned into a HR.
    Exactly. When a routine fly ball can be turned into a HR, your execution doesn't have to be as exact. And there's more to baseball execution than just hitting. Fielding and throwing and running and decision making are there too. The game is boring when you're waiting for the 3-run HR.
    The one constant through all the years, Ray, has been baseball. America has rolled by like an army of steamrollers. It has been erased like a blackboard, rebuilt and erased again. But baseball has marked the time. -- Terrance Mann (Field of Dreams)

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    Re: Watching Moneyball

    Quote Originally Posted by dougdirt View Post
    PED's or not, it takes a whole lot of skill to even make decent contact with a baseball thrown by a professional pitcher. The skill and execution part were never missing from baseball.

    True to a point Doug.....it takes skill a s execution to get a hit or hit a homerun or basically do anything with the ball other than just make contact.....when we were in high school, a Reds closer from my hometown cae and pitched BP to us whenever he got the chance, he wasn't throwing sliders and curveballs and change ups but he was hitting 90+ on the radar consistently and some of our players could square it up pretty good....now, they knew what pitch was coming and that makes a huge difference but my point is if you can just make contact, then bulking up with steroids will help that contact become a sharper line drive or a further fly ball or a harder bouncer in the 5-6 hole......skill and execution is still a major part of hitting the ball and the best of the best are in MLB but if you give life long triple A players steroids and you make the average MLb player not take steroids then the triple A players have a better chance at taking over the game as does someone who is not given those extra advantages.

    I know we could debate this topic to death if we both had the time and energy but one of my pet peeves of the steroid era was when someone said steroids never helped anyone hit a 95 mph fastball.....that's hogwash at its finest....I can hit a 85 mph fastball right now just off the recliner, give me a few years of steroids and practice everyday of the year like today's players have access to and I promise I could hit that faster pitch further than I could the 85 mph pitch.

    The base hitters of today's game are the ones I feel are the true skill players, they are the ones not standing up there like meatheads just swinging out of their shoes and seeing how far it goes, unfortunately they are usually not the ones taking steroids to enhance their power numbers....

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    Member Razor Shines's Avatar
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    Re: Watching Moneyball

    Quote Originally Posted by lidspinner View Post
    True to a point Doug.....it takes skill a s execution to get a hit or hit a homerun or basically do anything with the ball other than just make contact.....when we were in high school, a Reds closer from my hometown cae and pitched BP to us whenever he got the chance, he wasn't throwing sliders and curveballs and change ups but he was hitting 90+ on the radar consistently and some of our players could square it up pretty good....now, they knew what pitch was coming and that makes a huge difference but my point is if you can just make contact, then bulking up with steroids will help that contact become a sharper line drive or a further fly ball or a harder bouncer in the 5-6 hole......skill and execution is still a major part of hitting the ball and the best of the best are in MLB but if you give life long triple A players steroids and you make the average MLb player not take steroids then the triple A players have a better chance at taking over the game as does someone who is not given those extra advantages.

    I know we could debate this topic to death if we both had the time and energy but one of my pet peeves of the steroid era was when someone said steroids never helped anyone hit a 95 mph fastball.....that's hogwash at its finest....I can hit a 85 mph fastball right now just off the recliner, give me a few years of steroids and practice everyday of the year like today's players have access to and I promise I could hit that faster pitch further than I could the 85 mph pitch.

    The base hitters of today's game are the ones I feel are the true skill players, they are the ones not standing up there like meatheads just swinging out of their shoes and seeing how far it goes, unfortunately they are usually not the ones taking steroids to enhance their power numbers....
    If you can hit a 85mph fastball, then yes a few years of practice and you'll be able to hit that 95mph pitch and farther than the 85. I don't see what that has to do with steroids. Simple body control and squaring up a pitch that's 10mph faster will make it go farther.

    What is a "base hitter"? Like a slap hitter a singles guy? Cause that's crazy. Look no farther than Votto for one of the most skilled hitters in baseball, I would hardly call him a "base hitter". I mean do you really think Ruth wasn't one of the most skilled hitters ever, he was a "meathead swinging out of his shoes"? Bonds? Bonds was probably the most skilled hitter in history, maybe Ted Williams. You really think you can just be big and swing hard and make it as a major leaguer?

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    Worst Behavior. reds44's Avatar
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    Re: Watching Moneyball

    Watching Bonds in his steroid prime was absolutely glorious to watch. I don't care if the fact he was roided out of his mind ruined it for other people because I thought it was spactacular then and I still do.
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