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Thread: Watching Moneyball

  1. #16
    Member Razor Shines's Avatar
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    Re: Watching Moneyball

    Quote Originally Posted by vaticanplum View Post
    It's not just the big leaguers. Steroids run rampant at the lower levels of sports and especially among gym rats in suburbs all across the country -- young and middle-aged guys who do "just a bit" here and there to bulk up. With MLB's crackdown, and the casual attitude taken toward steroids among the masses, I'd say at this point that poses a much bigger danger to kids.
    Bingo.

    If you think you just have to worry about steroids because of guys like Bonds and Sosa then you need to do a little research. If you don't want him to be tempted with steroids, keep him away from all sports and don't let him join a gym.

    I played with guys in high school on steroids. That's where guys get tempted. It's not because they idolize Major Leaguers. Young guys get tempted because they see their friends do it. They see the results their friends and teammates get.

    And as someone stated, steroids or PEDs are not a magic pill. The guys taking PEDs spend more time in the gym than anyone. It doesn't make you a better hitter either. So many guys take some type of PED, get stronger but still can't hit.

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    Re: Watching Moneyball

    Quote Originally Posted by dougdirt View Post
    PED's or not, it takes a whole lot of skill to even make decent contact with a baseball thrown by a professional pitcher. The skill and execution part were never missing from baseball.

    True to a point Doug.....it takes skill a s execution to get a hit or hit a homerun or basically do anything with the ball other than just make contact.....when we were in high school, a Reds closer from my hometown cae and pitched BP to us whenever he got the chance, he wasn't throwing sliders and curveballs and change ups but he was hitting 90+ on the radar consistently and some of our players could square it up pretty good....now, they knew what pitch was coming and that makes a huge difference but my point is if you can just make contact, then bulking up with steroids will help that contact become a sharper line drive or a further fly ball or a harder bouncer in the 5-6 hole......skill and execution is still a major part of hitting the ball and the best of the best are in MLB but if you give life long triple A players steroids and you make the average MLb player not take steroids then the triple A players have a better chance at taking over the game as does someone who is not given those extra advantages.

    I know we could debate this topic to death if we both had the time and energy but one of my pet peeves of the steroid era was when someone said steroids never helped anyone hit a 95 mph fastball.....that's hogwash at its finest....I can hit a 85 mph fastball right now just off the recliner, give me a few years of steroids and practice everyday of the year like today's players have access to and I promise I could hit that faster pitch further than I could the 85 mph pitch.

    The base hitters of today's game are the ones I feel are the true skill players, they are the ones not standing up there like meatheads just swinging out of their shoes and seeing how far it goes, unfortunately they are usually not the ones taking steroids to enhance their power numbers....

  5. #18
    We Need Our Myths reds1869's Avatar
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    Re: Watching Moneyball

    Quote Originally Posted by Bumstead View Post
    Surprisingly enough, I have never sat around enjoying the talent of cheating, a-holes in my entire life. Frankly, I think it's sad that people give guys like that any attention at all.

    Bum
    Then I'm surprised you like baseball at all. It is a game full of cheaters and always has been.

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    Re: Watching Moneyball

    Moneyball is a very good movie. Brad Pitt, always an underated actor, was fantastic, and the screenplay explained complicated concepts simply and practically.

    On what has become the subject of this thread, I think that the only reason he did not win the MVP every year between 1990 and 1998 is that he was held to a different standard than everyone else. That perhaps was because he was so good, and perhaps because he was a jackhole. Or perhaps both. I also think that the MVP slights in those years were among the impetuses for his later juicing.

    In his "prime," he lost me not for the obvious-even-then juicing but for the absurd body armor that he was allowed to wear. He could be so "selective" in those years in part because he was given a different strike zone than the rest of baseball, and because he hung his armored elbow into the middle of it, shrinking it even further. I think the Bonds armor/strike zone were a much bigger crime against the game than his steroids.

    And I also prefer to pretend that he retired, or perhaps Clemente'ed, after the1999 season. He would have been a HOFer in my book, easily.

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    Re: Watching Moneyball

    Quote Originally Posted by lidspinner View Post
    True to a point Doug.....it takes skill a s execution to get a hit or hit a homerun or basically do anything with the ball other than just make contact.....when we were in high school, a Reds closer from my hometown cae and pitched BP to us whenever he got the chance, he wasn't throwing sliders and curveballs and change ups but he was hitting 90+ on the radar consistently and some of our players could square it up pretty good....now, they knew what pitch was coming and that makes a huge difference but my point is if you can just make contact, then bulking up with steroids will help that contact become a sharper line drive or a further fly ball or a harder bouncer in the 5-6 hole......skill and execution is still a major part of hitting the ball and the best of the best are in MLB but if you give life long triple A players steroids and you make the average MLb player not take steroids then the triple A players have a better chance at taking over the game as does someone who is not given those extra advantages.

    I know we could debate this topic to death if we both had the time and energy but one of my pet peeves of the steroid era was when someone said steroids never helped anyone hit a 95 mph fastball.....that's hogwash at its finest....I can hit a 85 mph fastball right now just off the recliner, give me a few years of steroids and practice everyday of the year like today's players have access to and I promise I could hit that faster pitch further than I could the 85 mph pitch.

    The base hitters of today's game are the ones I feel are the true skill players, they are the ones not standing up there like meatheads just swinging out of their shoes and seeing how far it goes, unfortunately they are usually not the ones taking steroids to enhance their power numbers....
    If you can hit a 85mph fastball, then yes a few years of practice and you'll be able to hit that 95mph pitch and farther than the 85. I don't see what that has to do with steroids. Simple body control and squaring up a pitch that's 10mph faster will make it go farther.

    What is a "base hitter"? Like a slap hitter a singles guy? Cause that's crazy. Look no farther than Votto for one of the most skilled hitters in baseball, I would hardly call him a "base hitter". I mean do you really think Ruth wasn't one of the most skilled hitters ever, he was a "meathead swinging out of his shoes"? Bonds? Bonds was probably the most skilled hitter in history, maybe Ted Williams. You really think you can just be big and swing hard and make it as a major leaguer?

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    Re: Watching Moneyball

    Quote Originally Posted by reds1869 View Post
    Then I'm surprised you like baseball at all. It is a game full of cheaters and always has been.
    Well, you know, people can continue to wear the PED's blinders and criticize other fans, but it really isn't going to change how I feel about it. Bonds, Sosa, McGwire, Roger Clemons, etc made a mockery of the game and a mockery of the baseball records which are held to be very sacred (in comparison to records in other sports). But, you know, keep putting down the people that don't like it or just keep pretending PED's give/gave nobody an advantage. Laughable.

    Bum

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    Re: Watching Moneyball

    Quote Originally Posted by Bumstead View Post
    Well, you know, people can continue to wear the PED's blinders and criticize other fans, but it really isn't going to change how I feel about it. Bonds, Sosa, McGwire, Roger Clemons, etc made a mockery of the game and a mockery of the baseball records which are held to be very sacred (in comparison to records in other sports). But, you know, keep putting down the people that don't like it or just keep pretending PED's give/gave nobody an advantage. Laughable.

    Bum
    I don't think 1869 was isolating PEDs. "Cheating" and getting every advantage possible has been muddied in baseball for as long as it's been around. Spitballs, scuffed balls, snot balls, Vaseline balls, corked bats, grounds crews doctoring fields, Hrbek pulling people off of bases and tagging them out, catchers putting their mask in the baseline so players have to run around it, or stepping up to block the plate and tripping them. This list goes on and on.

    I'm not defending anabolics but PEDs include amphetamines and and they were extremely widespread . I'm just saying that "cheating" is kind of a subjective term and many of the game's greats are guilty.
    Everything that can be counted does not necessarily count; everything that counts cannot necessarily be counted.

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  13. #23
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    Re: Watching Moneyball

    Quote Originally Posted by TSJ55 View Post
    I don't think 1869 was isolating PEDs. "Cheating" and getting every advantage possible has been muddied in baseball for as long as it's been around. Spitballs, scuffed balls, snot balls, Vaseline balls, corked bats, grounds crews doctoring fields, Hrbek pulling people off of bases and tagging them out, catchers putting their mask in the baseline so players have to run around it, or stepping up to block the plate and tripping them. This list goes on and on.

    I'm not defending anabolics but PEDs include amphetamines and and they were extremely widespread . I'm just saying that "cheating" is kind of a subjective term and many of the game's greats are guilty.
    Yes, that is exactly what I meant. Not saying I approve of PED use, just that there are many forms of cheating scattered through baseball history.

  14. #24
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    Re: Watching Moneyball

    Quote Originally Posted by TSJ55 View Post
    I don't think 1869 was isolating PEDs. "Cheating" and getting every advantage possible has been muddied in baseball for as long as it's been around. Spitballs, scuffed balls, snot balls, Vaseline balls, corked bats, grounds crews doctoring fields, Hrbek pulling people off of bases and tagging them out, catchers putting their mask in the baseline so players have to run around it, or stepping up to block the plate and tripping them. This list goes on and on.

    I'm not defending anabolics but PEDs include amphetamines and and they were extremely widespread . I'm just saying that "cheating" is kind of a subjective term and many of the game's greats are guilty.
    Stealing signs is another one.

    I'd like to think, though I have no way of knowing this, that the era we are in now is probably cleaner with less cheating than there has ever been. Now, I'm probably just being naive.
    The one constant through all the years, Ray, has been baseball. America has rolled by like an army of steamrollers. It has been erased like a blackboard, rebuilt and erased again. But baseball has marked the time. -- Terrance Mann (Field of Dreams)

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    Re: Watching Moneyball

    So...I say I don't like cheaters and [jerks] (and there has clearly been cheating throughout baseball history) and then I can't like baseball? Sorry, don't get it. There are plenty of players that haven't (or don't) cheated in the game. The game of baseball is great, but there are many selfish players (and fans) that have taken a crap on the game. I don't have to like them or their actions, but I don't see why that should keep me from loving the game itself...

    Bum
    Last edited by dabvu2498; 07-18-2013 at 12:38 PM. Reason: Veiled profanity.

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    Re: Watching Moneyball

    Quote Originally Posted by Dan View Post
    Stealing signs is another one.

    I'd like to think, though I have no way of knowing this, that the era we are in now is probably cleaner with less cheating than there has ever been. Now, I'm probably just being naive.
    How is stealing signs cheating? Do players/managers get suspended for it? Is there a rule against it? That's like saying Tom Glavine cheated because he kept pitching outside when umpires were calling strikes 4-5" off the plate for him...It's not cheating, it's part of the game.

    Bum

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  18. #27
    No half measures, Walter RedEye's Avatar
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    Re: Watching Moneyball

    Quote Originally Posted by Bumstead View Post
    How is stealing signs cheating? Do players/managers get suspended for it? Is there a rule against it? That's like saying Tom Glavine cheated because he kept pitching outside when umpires were calling strikes 4-5" off the plate for him...It's not cheating, it's part of the game.

    Bum
    It doesn't have to be against the letter of the rules to be cheating. (Referencing stealing signs and not your Glavine example)
    "Iíll kind of have a foot on the back of my own butt. Thatís just how I do things.Ē -- Bryan Price, 10/22/2013

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    Re: Watching Moneyball

    Quote Originally Posted by RedEye View Post
    It doesn't have to be against the letter of the rules to be cheating. (Referencing stealing signs and not your Glavine example)
    It pretty much does. Why have teams historically gone through 2-5 levels of signs if all the teams aren't stealing signs when they can? Heck, even in little league there are multiple signs to try and throw the other team off. It's a big game within the game, it's not cheating by any means.

    Now, teams that feel someone is stealing signs may take some action toward that player (like hitting him the next time he bats or something) but that doesn't make it cheating; just means they were mad about it.

    Bum

  20. #29
    The Big Dog mth123's Avatar
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    Re: Watching Moneyball

    Stealing signs is not cheating. In fact it's a fine art that should be a given some credit. A lot of baseball is anticipating what's coming. If some one is good enough to figure it out, good for them.

    Now, if doing it with cameras or other such technology is involved, I'd agree it's cheating, but if a guy on a team picks up what the other team is signaling based on his knowledge of the game, I say that's great.
    "All I can tell them is pick a good one and sock it." --BABE RUTH

    Having better players makes "the right time" or "the big hit" happen a lot more often. PLUS PLUS

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  22. #30
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    Re: Watching Moneyball

    Some interesting topics on this thread. A couple of things.

    Regarding steroids, if you ever get a chance I highly recommend watching the documentary film Bigger, Stonger, Faster. It is about steroid use in America and the opposing values of doing the right thing and being the best. It is informative, funny and unlike most documentary films which are slanted to make you take the side of the producer, it really leaves the question of right or wrong open ended.

    Regarding Barry Bonds, I will preface everything I have to say with I don't like the guy and I never have. He was a jerk his whole career and a cheat for half his career. That being said he was the best hitter I have ever seen and its not even much of a debate.

    You look at the numbers prior to the 2000 season when he starting juicing and you have a 10 season slash of .440/.610/1.050. with 40/40 ability. 3 MVPs, 8 Gold Gloves 7 Silver Suggers.

    Take that type of ability add the juice and you get flat out cartoon numbers .800+ Slugging, 550+OBP, OPS 1300+ . In an era where most of his peers were juicing and putting up big numbers, he was putting up off the chart offensive numbers while playing half his games in a park that supresses offense, especially to LHH. Did steroids help? Absolutely. But the guy was the best hitter in the game before and the boost only put him further ahead.

    An interesting side story. Back in 1999 I lived in this small town in central New Jersery called Raritan. It was kind of run down working class town and I lived there because it is what I could afford at the time. Anyway, I go into the corner deli I frequented there and the owner is talking to this guy about baseball and the guy leaves. When I went to put in my order the owner said "Do you know who that was?" I said no. He said its Bobby Bonds. I said "of the Giants?" He said "no, not Barry Bonds, Bobby Bonds Jr. Its Barry's little brother he plays on the Independant league team in Somerset and he lives across the street." I laughed and said Wow, his Dad is a famous all-star baseball player who made a fortune, his brother is an all-star baseball player making a fortune, his cousin is Reggie Jackson and here his is living in this podunk town hoping to catch someones eye playing independant ball. He must LOVE going home for the holidays.


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