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Thread: Make Billy Hamilton Available...

  1. #1
    Just A Couple Johnny's OneManBand's Avatar
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    Make Billy Hamilton Available...

    I'm a huge B_Ham fan.. But I'm an even a bigger Reds fan. Lets face it... Billy is a one dimensional player.. He's fast... Real fast. Thing is though.. The speed doesn't translate to hits at the AAA level apparently this season. Just don't see a spot for him other then AAA. I'd rather make a run at a corner OFer like Corey Hart and move Bruce to CF or sign a guy like Ellsbury or Chris Young (Doubt Oakland picks up the 11 Million option for 2014) in the offseason. If it means putting together a blockbuster deal that has this team loaded for a real playoff push then we need to pull the trigger. I just think this team has its fair share of offensive issues. We tend to score a lot of runs in games where we are blowing the opposing team out of the water versus games where we are losing 3-0. This team has areas that need to be addressed; catching, OF.. Again I'd like to move Choo over to LF and bring in a CFer or RFer & move Bruce accordingly. I'd even be okay if they acquired a 3rd baseman and moved Frazier to LF and Choo to RF. Michael Young would be the type of player I'd seek there. A leader type guy with an ability to just get on base.

    Here is my proposed deal:

    Reds trade Homer Bailey, Billy Hamilton, Tucker Barnhart, Henry Rodriguez & Danny Corcino

    Phillies trade Cliff Lee, Carlos Ruiz, Michael Young, & Cash

    Reds get a nasty arm to go with Cueto & Latos. Lee takes the pressure off Cueto and would be a solid replacement for Arroyo next season. A rotation for 2014 that features Cueto, Lee, Latos, Leake, & Cingrani.. Yikes! Ruiz would help Hanigan & Mes get healthy. Corky is a lovable guy.. Just not at this level. Young as mentioned before would serve as the new 3rd baseman and shift Frazier to the OF. Young takes on a leader role that this team is needing. Rolen served a purpose with this team regardless of his stats. So you add these 3 All-Stars while providing building blocks to the Phils. Reds have had the names in the hat in recent years with names like Cliff Lee, Ubaldo Jimenez, & James Shields.. Lets do the unpredictable and make a huge bid for a pennant!

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    Re: Make Billy Hamilton Available...

    I don't know...I don't typically like any deal that moves guys who are 27, 22, 22, and 22 for guys who are 36, 34, and 34, 2 of which are free agents after this year (per B-R).

    I also think it's a little early to give up on Hamilton. He tends to be a slow starter, plus he's 22 at AAA.

    If the right deal came along, sure, I'd move him, but I don't think this is the right deal. Lee would handcuff this team through 2015 as far as salary is concerned...he makes $25.0M/year through 2015 with a vesting option of $27.5M if he hits 200 IP in 2015 or 400 IP in 14-15. I'm not sure the Phillies would throw in enough cash to offset that huge hit.

    It's definitely an interesting idea, but I'm not sure I like it enough...plus as good as Frazier has played 3B, do we really want to start messing with that?

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    Member mattfeet's Avatar
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    Re: Make Billy Hamilton Available...

    It would take less than that to get those players from the Phillies.

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    Moderator RedlegJake's Avatar
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    Re: Make Billy Hamilton Available...

    Replace Bailey with Lee....a slight upgrade that would only cost 20 million a year. Improve 3B offense with a rent a player while downgrading LF defense at no substantial upgrade to the O. Improve the catching momentarily while trading the closest backup catching prospect the Reds have....with another rent a player. Add millions and millions to this year's payroll with little chance of re-signing either FA acquisition (and deadline acquisitions do not qualify for draft picks if I remember correctly). No. I would not do this deal. Yes, it improves the Reds this season but hurts the future, handcuffs the payroll going forward and gives up on 2 really, really talented prospects and 2 solid but unspectacular ones for three players in the waning years of their careers.

    I'd be interested if these player could be had for less as Mattfeet suggests. I think you have good targets but are giving up too much because of the short term aspect of the acquisitions and the huge salary involved.

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    Re: Make Billy Hamilton Available...

    I really like Billy Hamilton too! I have been following him since the beginning of last season. But I have to disagree with your trade.

    Hamilton was our highest prospect ranked in the Top 100 around the Top 20 to be exact. If we were to offer him in a trade I would like to get a big return out of it. It might mean we would have to pair him with other young talent that teams may want like Corcino, Soto, Rodriguez, or even young major league talent like Hoover or Bailey. In return I expect we would get a long term, cheap, and relatively young major league talent that fills a hole.

    This team needs to be in a win now mode though too. The long term idea is to make sure we are competitive in the future, but the win now idea has to be top priority too. We are fortunate to have this talent this year. Choo, Latos, and Bailey all need to be extended to stay. Also, we have players like Votto and Phillips who's salary will increase too.

    So keeping in mind the talent we are giving up and the priorities to win now and stay competitive in the future, I think the better options include Stanton and Profar. Of course, we would need to get more back than just those two. Maybe try to aquire some younger, high potential prospects so as not to completely thin out the farm.
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    Re: Make Billy Hamilton Available...

    Quote Originally Posted by dwyerbrg View Post
    I don't know...I don't typically like any deal that moves guys who are 27, 22, 22, and 22 for guys who are 36, 34, and 34, 2 of which are free agents after this year (per B-R).

    I also think it's a little early to give up on Hamilton. He tends to be a slow starter, plus he's 22 at AAA.

    If the right deal came along, sure, I'd move him, but I don't think this is the right deal. Lee would handcuff this team through 2015 as far as salary is concerned...he makes $25.0M/year through 2015 with a vesting option of $27.5M if he hits 200 IP in 2015 or 400 IP in 14-15. I'm not sure the Phillies would throw in enough cash to offset that huge hit.

    It's definitely an interesting idea, but I'm not sure I like it enough...plus as good as Frazier has played 3B, do we really want to start messing with that?
    Nailed it. I would like to add that Hamilton is obviously still very young and does have time to develop still. I think a September call up would to get a few major league ABs would be good for him to build on. That said I don't think he is untouchable, if he can be traded to make the current ML team better this year and the future, I wouldn't mind moving him.

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    Re: Make Billy Hamilton Available...

    Like the posters above, I agree that Hamilton isn't untouchable. However, the return would have to include a good, young, controllable player to fill CF, LF, or 3B for the next 3 or 4 years. My personal deadline plan does not include dealing away Hamilton. Here's my proposal:

    1. Reds acquire RHP Steve Cishek from the Marlins for Neftali Soto and Chad Rogers.

    2. Reds acquire 3B/LF Nick Castellanos from the Tigers for Aroldis Chapman

    Castellanos is a top prospect who's ready now and is blocked by one of the best in the game. Also if the Reds aren't going to give Chapman a chance to start, I'd just as soon deal him to an AL squad that is in desperate need of a shutdown reliever. Picking up Cishek mostly offsets the loss of Chapman. He obviously isn't as dominant as Chapman, but I think the end result (SV%) would be just about the same. There's some obvious risk here if Castellanos doesn't pan out, but I think this kind of deal could set up the Reds to remain competitive for the long haul.

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    Re: Make Billy Hamilton Available...

    Quote Originally Posted by Alpha Zero View Post
    Like the posters above, I agree that Hamilton isn't untouchable. However, the return would have to include a good, young, controllable player to fill CF, LF, or 3B for the next 3 or 4 years. My personal deadline plan does not include dealing away Hamilton. Here's my proposal:

    1. Reds acquire RHP Steve Cishek from the Marlins for Neftali Soto and Chad Rogers.

    2. Reds acquire 3B/LF Nick Castellanos from the Tigers for Aroldis Chapman

    Castellanos is a top prospect who's ready now and is blocked by one of the best in the game. Also if the Reds aren't going to give Chapman a chance to start, I'd just as soon deal him to an AL squad that is in desperate need of a shutdown reliever. Picking up Cishek mostly offsets the loss of Chapman. He obviously isn't as dominant as Chapman, but I think the end result (SV%) would be just about the same. There's some obvious risk here if Castellanos doesn't pan out, but I think this kind of deal could set up the Reds to remain competitive for the long haul.
    I could get behind these deals. And contender to contender may be the way to go rather than looking for a "seller". The Tigers deal helps both teams and the Reds might get another piece besides Castellanos for Chapman.

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    Re: Make Billy Hamilton Available...

    Quote Originally Posted by Alpha Zero View Post
    2. Reds acquire 3B/LF Nick Castellanos from the Tigers for Aroldis Chapman

    Castellanos is a top prospect who's ready now and is blocked by one of the best in the game. Also if the Reds aren't going to give Chapman a chance to start, I'd just as soon deal him to an AL squad that is in desperate need of a shutdown reliever. Picking up Cishek mostly offsets the loss of Chapman. He obviously isn't as dominant as Chapman, but I think the end result (SV%) would be just about the same. There's some obvious risk here if Castellanos doesn't pan out, but I think this kind of deal could set up the Reds to remain competitive for the long haul.
    The question isn't whether the Reds will give him the shot, but if he wants the shot. He's comfortable closing. That's what he does. He's an unknown quantity when it comes to starting. I do wish they'd figured that out earlier, but that ship has sailed and he has likely established himself as a career closer at this point.

    That being said, I have no problem moving him for a nice part, whether it be for the now or the future.

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    Re: Make Billy Hamilton Available...

    Quote Originally Posted by dwyerbrg View Post
    The question isn't whether the Reds will give him the shot, but if he wants the shot. He's comfortable closing. That's what he does. He's an unknown quantity when it comes to starting. I do wish they'd figured that out earlier, but that ship has sailed and he has likely established himself as a career closer at this point.

    That being said, I have no problem moving him for a nice part, whether it be for the now or the future.
    Chapman was also perfectly comfortable starting his whole life prior to the end of the 2010 season when the Reds converted him to a relief role. The Reds are his employer, so if he's asked to start, he'll start. I think Chapman's comfort level has very little to do with it.

    But I do agree that the Aroldis Chapman for starter ship has sailed at this point. He'd only be able to throw 2/3 of a season in 2014 while ramping up his innings totals, and the Reds only control him for a couple of years after that. I don't know if he'd be a disaster or dominant as a starter, but at this point, it's a moot argument.

    In the end, he's a reliever. A great reliever, but a reliever nonetheless. If he can be dealt for an excellent prospect or a very good young player, the Reds should pull the trigger.

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    Re: Make Billy Hamilton Available...

    What Scouts Are Saying

    Reds OF prospect Billy Hamilton (Triple-A Louisville - Reds 2nd round pick of the 2009 draft, Reds no. 1 ranked preseason prospect): "The speed is absolutely fantastic. He's fun to watch when he's on the bases, but I just don't see how it's going to work. There's nothing else that makes me believe he's an everyday big leaguer. You can knock the bat out of his hands with good velocity and he doesn't have the discerning eye to work counts and lay off spin. I just think the hit and on-base comes up short and he's a virtual zero offensively. If he can figure everything out in center field then maybe has a future hitting eighth or ninth and playing good D, but that's even stretching it for me."

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    Re: Make Billy Hamilton Available...

    Quote Originally Posted by Alpha Zero View Post
    Like the posters above, I agree that Hamilton isn't untouchable. However, the return would have to include a good, young, controllable player to fill CF, LF, or 3B for the next 3 or 4 years. My personal deadline plan does not include dealing away Hamilton. Here's my proposal:

    1. Reds acquire RHP Steve Cishek from the Marlins for Neftali Soto and Chad Rogers.

    2. Reds acquire 3B/LF Nick Castellanos from the Tigers for Aroldis Chapman

    Castellanos is a top prospect who's ready now and is blocked by one of the best in the game. Also if the Reds aren't going to give Chapman a chance to start, I'd just as soon deal him to an AL squad that is in desperate need of a shutdown reliever. Picking up Cishek mostly offsets the loss of Chapman. He obviously isn't as dominant as Chapman, but I think the end result (SV%) would be just about the same. There's some obvious risk here if Castellanos doesn't pan out, but I think this kind of deal could set up the Reds to remain competitive for the long haul.
    If the Reds could get a significant upgrade at an everyday position I would absolutely be on board with trading Chapman either at the deadline or in the offseason. I think his value will never be higher (since he won't be starting) and the velocity with which he throws and the velocity with which he drives (and other off field issues), I think he is an inherrently risky asset.

    That being said I would want more than Nick Castellanos. He might be a good player but his minor league number and position profile reminds me a lot of Todd Frazier. I would want more than that.

  16. #13
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    Re: Make Billy Hamilton Available...

    Unless Walt is willing to sacrifice the future and go all in this year, Lee makes absolutely no sense for the Reds.

    Sure, he's a top of the rotation pitcher having an excellent season. He's one of the better lefties in the league. He's got a solid post season resume.

    He's also 34 and has a contract that will pay him 25 million next year, 25 million in 2015 and anywhere between 12.5 million (buyout) and 27.5 million in 2016 (he will be 37).

    I won't go into semantics over the players involved in any trade scenario because I don't see it happening, but were it somehow possible, the Phillies are going to want a lot.

    As for Hamilton, I think he is, as of today, overrated. Yes, he's incredibly fast and is a base running machine. But he hasn't hit yet (.300 OBP, doesn't walk, Ks too much) and is average in the OF.

    Think about it. The Reds have a sizable hole in the 2 spot and in LF, yet Hamilton doesn't get called up. There's a reason for that. He's not ready.

    Until he picks up his game, his trade value is not high.
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    Re: Make Billy Hamilton Available...

    I was a Hamilton fan for about 10 minutes. Then I looked at his stats. This guy is another Stubbs without the defense. And he is our hope? No way. Trade him now while there is some interest.

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    Re: Make Billy Hamilton Available...

    Quote Originally Posted by krm1580 View Post
    That being said I would want more than Nick Castellanos. He might be a good player but his minor league number and position profile reminds me a lot of Todd Frazier. I would want more than that.
    Nick Castellanos is 21 and is hitting well at AAA. When Frazier was 21, he'd just been drafted and was playing rookie ball. Frazier didn't reach the majors until he was 25 and didn't stick until he was 26. Age means a lot when we're talking prospects and upside, so while their numbers may look similar, you have to go a level deeper than that.

    I doubt the Tigers would give up much more than Castellanos for Chapman. Maybe a couple of middling prospects, but that'd be about it. You could potentially build a deal around a different player and get a little more quantity, but I'm not familiar enough with the Togers' system to figure that one out.


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