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Thread: Trading "The Cuban Missile"

  1. #46
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    Re: Trading "The Cuban Missile"

    Quote Originally Posted by 757690 View Post
    Chapman is extremely underrated, especially here on Redszone. He's one of the best arms in the majors, just about to reach his prime years.

    Puig is extremely overrated, and very unknown.

    Plus Dodgers need pitchers much more than they need hitters.

    How exactly is Puig "extremely overrated"? All anyone can really go by is what he did in spring training, minors, and since his call up. Not to get too hyperbolic, but he's been nothing short of outstanding.

    That's not to say I'm necessarily in favor of trading Chapman, but if there actually were a chance to get Puig for Chapman + prospect, I would do it every day of the week and twice on Sunday. Sure the rest of the league might get the book on Puig and he proves to be a flash in the pan, but that's a risk I would take.

    Now, you want an overrated Cuban? Hint: Plays a terrible LF for the A's, K's in his sleep, and is more fragile than a China doll.

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  3. #47
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    Re: Trading "The Cuban Missile"

    Quote Originally Posted by NorCal Reds Fan View Post
    How exactly is Puig "extremely overrated"? All anyone can really go by is what he did in spring training, minors, and since his call up. Not to get too hyperbolic, but he's been nothing short of outstanding.

    That's not to say I'm necessarily in favor of trading Chapman, but if there actually were a chance to get Puig for Chapman + prospect, I would do it every day of the week and twice on Sunday. Sure the rest of the league might get the book on Puig and he proves to be a flash in the pan, but that's a risk I would take.

    Now, you want an overrated Cuban? Hint: Plays a terrible LF for the A's, K's in his sleep, and is more fragile than a China doll.
    He's overrated simply because he's unknown. MLB history is littered with guys who start off strong like Puig has, and then been average or worse the rest of their career.
    "Man, the pitch looks fast, even in slow motion." Thom Brennaman on Chapman's fastball.

  4. #48
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    Re: Trading "The Cuban Missile"

    Quote Originally Posted by 757690 View Post
    He's overrated simply because he's unknown. MLB history is littered with guys who start off strong like Puig has, and then been average or worse the rest of their career.
    The dude is a true 5-tool player, and in his first 70 games has numbers better than Mike Trout's first 70 in almost every offensive category. Puig will finish this season with 100+ games, and unless he flames out over the next 30+ games, is going to end up with some eye-popping numbers at the plate and great defense in the field.

    I'm no historian, so I'd honestly like to know who the rookies are who put up his kind of numbers and then just faded away...and not guys who were hot their first 20 games or so (a'la Shane Spencer), but for the better part of a full season. Yeah, I remember guys like Joe Charboneau, Jerome Walton, and Bob Hamelin, but none of them had across the board numbers like Puig.

    Again, the above is no gurantee he won't turn out to be a bust...and Chapman is one of the better closers in the game. But as the A's and other teams have shown, you can do okay by plugging in decent closers for 2-3 year stints, so I would take the risk of giving up Chapman for the potential reward of what you could get in return for an everyday player like Puig.
    Last edited by NorCal Reds Fan; 08-23-2013 at 11:32 PM.

  5. #49
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    Re: Trading "The Cuban Missile"

    The only guy I can think of with numbers across the board like Puig in about the same amount of season in his rookie year is Willie McCovey. Puig's free swinging low discipline approach may mean he won't hit .360+ next season but I didn't really expect that anyway but I doubt he'll pull a Charboneau either. There is simply no way in the world the Dodgers would even consider him for Chapman in any kind of package....it takes a LOT to get fans in LA excited with the competition from movie stars, beaches, attractions of all sorts and Puig has done exactly that - over all the "name" players this kid has captured the city. They ain't trading him for anyone or anything. It goes beyond talent at this point. They'd trade any other player on that team before they'd trade Puig.

  6. #50
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    Re: Trading "The Cuban Missile"

    Quote Originally Posted by RedlegJake View Post
    The only guy I can think of with numbers across the board like Puig in about the same amount of season in his rookie year is Willie McCovey. Puig's free swinging low discipline approach may mean he won't hit .360+ next season but I didn't really expect that anyway but I doubt he'll pull a Charboneau either. There is simply no way in the world the Dodgers would even consider him for Chapman in any kind of package....it takes a LOT to get fans in LA excited with the competition from movie stars, beaches, attractions of all sorts and Puig has done exactly that - over all the "name" players this kid has captured the city. They ain't trading him for anyone or anything. It goes beyond talent at this point. They'd trade any other player on that team before they'd trade Puig.
    Agreed, he's Fernando Mania Part 2 with MLB Network, Baseball Tonight, etc. thrown in for extra measure. So like you say, they ain't trading him, I was just piggy-backing on the hypothetical someone threw out of Chapman for Puig.


    Re: McCovey, affirms my contention that there just aren't any players in "recent" memory I can think of who put up such astounding numbers and then just vanished within a couple seasons.

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  8. #51
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    Re: Trading "The Cuban Missile"

    Quote Originally Posted by 757690 View Post
    I'll simplify it even more.

    Chapman and Hamilton for Puig
    Why in the world would the Dodgers want Hamilton? If they keep Pederson, he'd be 3rd on the depth chart in CF and if they keep Van Slyke and Hairston about 7th or 8th on the depth chart in the OF.

    I'd trade Hamilton straight up for Pederson right now. Heck, I'd throw in a middling arm or two.

    Much prefer an .800+ OPS in CF with 20 HR pop and a .500+ slugging %. I'm guessing Pederson will be ready early next year. Hamilton looks like he needs another full season in AAA. Pederson is younger and has 5 tool upside. Hamilton's absolute best case is Willie Wilson and even a good result would be something similar to Otis Nixon. That just doesn't excite me much.

    Good chance he ends up as Willy Taveras or Curtis Goodwin.
    "All I can tell them is pick a good one and sock it." --BABE RUTH

    Having better players makes "the right time" or "the big hit" happen a lot more often. PLUS PLUS

  9. #52
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    Re: Trading "The Cuban Missile"

    Quote Originally Posted by Benihana View Post
    I'd simplify this: Chapman to the Dodgers for Joc Pederson and Corey Seager.
    I'd love it. I don't think the Dodgers would deal both for Chapman. I'd probably rather have more immediate help also. I still think the window is fairly short and guys like Van Slyke and Garcia can fill immediate holes for less money than keeping guys like Heisey around or going after a lefty (may need to anyway with Marshall a question and Parra a FA). Gordon would allow the Reds to carry a UI who would actually be useful in a game he's not starting. He could be a top notch pinch runner late in the game, has defensive chops and might even push Cozart a bit. Seager seems too far away but he's clearly a more valuable asset.

    A big problem is that I think the market for Chapman is pretty limited. He's going to cost a lot in arbitration IMO. More than most teams can devote to the closer spot IMO. A team like the Dodgers or Yankees would probably be the best fit. The Yankees don't have what the Reds would want IMO. I think the idea of him to the Marlins is a pipedream. They don't want his eventual arb award. If the Reds could get one building block and a 2 or 3 role players who are cheap, I think that would be a great return for him.
    "All I can tell them is pick a good one and sock it." --BABE RUTH

    Having better players makes "the right time" or "the big hit" happen a lot more often. PLUS PLUS

  10. #53
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    Re: Trading "The Cuban Missile"

    Quote Originally Posted by mth123 View Post
    Why in the world would the Dodgers want Hamilton? If they keep Pederson, he'd be 3rd on the depth chart in CF and if they keep Van Slyke and Hairston about 7th or 8th on the depth chart in the OF.

    I'd trade Hamilton straight up for Pederson right now. Heck, I'd throw in a middling arm or two.

    Much prefer an .800+ OPS in CF with 20 HR pop and a .500+ slugging %. I'm guessing Pederson will be ready early next year. Hamilton looks like he needs another full season in AAA. Pederson is younger and has 5 tool upside. Hamilton's absolute best case is Willie Wilson and even a good result would be something similar to Otis Nixon. That just doesn't excite me much.

    Good chance he ends up as Willy Taveras or Curtis Goodwin.
    Hamilton is rated higher than Pederson by eveyone except you, and for good reason. Pederson is much closer to Chris Heisey than Jay Bruce. Here is what Fangraphs said about him this year:

    Pederson would ultimately probably lack the range for center and the power traditionally associated with corner outfielders but that he might be useful as a regular, anyway.
    Hamilton is the only one of the two that has an elite tool. Hamilton is the only the only one of the two that has All-Star potential.

    You're being blinded by shiney minors league stats and your personal bias against speed guys.

    Pederson might make a decent fourth outfielder someday, or maybe an average LF, but he's miles away from being the elite prospect Hamilton is. Hamilton may have a lower floor, but he has a much, much higher ceiling.
    "Man, the pitch looks fast, even in slow motion." Thom Brennaman on Chapman's fastball.

  11. #54
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    Re: Trading "The Cuban Missile"

    Quote Originally Posted by RedlegJake View Post
    The only guy I can think of with numbers across the board like Puig in about the same amount of season in his rookie year is Willie McCovey. Puig's free swinging low discipline approach may mean he won't hit .360+ next season but I didn't really expect that anyway but I doubt he'll pull a Charboneau either. There is simply no way in the world the Dodgers would even consider him for Chapman in any kind of package....it takes a LOT to get fans in LA excited with the competition from movie stars, beaches, attractions of all sorts and Puig has done exactly that - over all the "name" players this kid has captured the city. They ain't trading him for anyone or anything. It goes beyond talent at this point. They'd trade any other player on that team before they'd trade Puig.
    Good point, but Chapman would get Dodger fans just as excited and sell just as many tickets.
    "Man, the pitch looks fast, even in slow motion." Thom Brennaman on Chapman's fastball.

  12. #55
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    Re: Trading "The Cuban Missile"

    Quote Originally Posted by 757690 View Post
    Good point, but Chapman would get Dodger fans just as excited and sell just as many tickets.
    In much smaller doses. A relief pitcher verses an everyday player? In box office Puig wins that hands down. Both are ticketable commodities but, imo, Puig is the more valuable as a gate attraction.

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    Re: Trading "The Cuban Missile"

    It would be nice not to have given up homeruns to Denorfia, Valdez, Lecroy and blow four ninth inning leads at this point in the season

  14. #57
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    Re: Trading "The Cuban Missile"

    Quote Originally Posted by RedlegJake View Post
    In much smaller doses. A relief pitcher verses an everyday player? In box office Puig wins that hands down. Both are ticketable commodities but, imo, Puig is the more valuable as a gate attraction.
    Dodgers aren't trading for Chapman the reliever, they're trading for the Chapman the starter. But regardless, Chalman has done wonders for Reds ticket sales, even as a closer. Fans love 100 MPH throwing closers. Didn't you ever see "Major League?"

    As a closer, fans go to every game thinking they will see Chapman if the Dodgers win. As a starter, they pack the house on nights he starts. Fans aren't going everyday to see Puig, either, no fan without season tickets goes that often. It really will have the same effect on fans.

    In fact, most big ticket draws in MLB history have been pitchers, not hitters.
    Last edited by 757690; 08-26-2013 at 11:22 AM.
    "Man, the pitch looks fast, even in slow motion." Thom Brennaman on Chapman's fastball.

  15. #58
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    Re: Trading "The Cuban Missile"

    Quote Originally Posted by 757690 View Post
    Dodgers aren't trading for Chapman the reliever, they're trading for the Chapman the starter. But regardless, Chalman has done wonders for Reds ticket sales, even as a closer. Fans love 100 MPH throwing closers. Didn't you ever see "Major League?"

    As a closer, fans go to every game thinking they will see Chapman if the Dodgers win. As a starter, they pack the house on nights he starts. Fans aren't going everyday to see Puig, either, no fan without season tickets goes that often. It really will have the same effect on fans.

    In fact, most big ticket draws in MLB history have been pitchers, not hitters.
    Oh, alright. If Chapman will get Charlie Sheen's haircut and leather jacket I'll agree with you....

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    Re: Trading "The Cuban Missile"

    If it were up to me, I'd trade Choo before Chapman. He's been costing us games lately.

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    Re: Trading "The Cuban Missile"

    [QUOTE=NorCal Reds Fan;2946691]
    I'm no historian, so I'd honestly like to know who the rookies are who put up his kind of numbers and then just faded away...and not guys who were hot their first 20 games or so (a'la Shane Spencer), but for the better part of a full season. Yeah, I remember guys like Joe Charboneau, Jerome Walton, and Bob Hamelin, but none of them had across the board numbers like Puig.

    Speaking of hot starts(and quick fades) in 1949 Dino Restelli hit 12 home runs in his first two months for the Pirates, including seven during his first 12 games when he had 17 RBI and an even .350 average. He was back in the minors by 1950.


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