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Thread: Brian Kenny crushing Dusty on Twitter

  1. #376
    RaisorZone Raisor's Avatar
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    Re: Brian Kenny crushing Dusty on Twitter

    Let me ask a general question:

    Some of you that are defending Dusty, are you doing because you honestly think he's a good to great manager, is it because he gets slammed so much, or is it both? Neither?
    "But I do know Joey's sister indirectly (or foster sister) and I have heard stories of Joey being into shopping, designer wear, fancy coffees, and pedicures."

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  3. #377
    Et tu, Brutus? Brutus's Avatar
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    Re: Brian Kenny crushing Dusty on Twitter

    Quote Originally Posted by Raisor View Post
    Let me ask a general question:

    Some of you that are defending Dusty, are you doing because you honestly think he's a good to great manager, is it because he gets slammed so much, or is it both? Neither?
    For me, it's both.

    I disliked Dusty when he got to Cincinnati. He won me over though. I think whatever deficiencies he might bring in probability as to how games are managed (which I think are often overstated on this forum), I think he makes up for in managing a clubhouse and how much his players respect him. I've always said happy employees are productive employees. It's been shown time and again through studies that workers produce more when they're happy. I believe baseball is no different in that you might not see it immediately, but players are more likely to reach their talent when they respect their employer and enjoy showing up everyday.

    There are still times when I'm slightly annoyed by something he does or doesn't do, but I think the complaining is greatly out of context with the actual significance. I also get annoyed when people complain about what Dusty says in the media. He's proven that he'll say nothing negative about a player's role in the media, even if he is going to make a change. Heck, everyone complained that he said Cozart was his two-hitter and a couple of days later, lo and behold... he wasn't. Dusty doesn't air his grievances publicly. People haven't figured that out yet, though.
    "No matter how good you are, you're going to lose one-third of your games. No matter how bad you are you're going to win one-third of your games. It's the other third that makes the difference." ~Tommy Lasorda

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  5. #378
    No half measures, Walter RedEye's Avatar
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    Re: Brian Kenny crushing Dusty on Twitter

    Quote Originally Posted by RedlegJake View Post
    When critiques continue on the exact same line ad nauseum...they go from intelligent reasoning to parrot like bashing, imo.
    They keep going on because the responses in the other direction continue not to hear their points and to respond with platitudes like "If he's a bad manager, why does he keep getting hired?" or "Everyone else is doing it."

    These are, unfortunately, neither responses to the critiques at hand nor relevant points in the same debate.

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  7. #379
    The Boss dougdirt's Avatar
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    Re: Brian Kenny crushing Dusty on Twitter

    Quote Originally Posted by Norm Chortleton View Post
    I hate to take up for Dusty in any way shape or form (and I find myself doing it too often, lately). I wish he wouldn't hit those players there. But at least he had the sense to move Stubbs to the bottom of the order in the playoffs last year. And I'm confident he'll do the same with Cozart this year, even if Ludwick never sees the field or doesn't work out.

    IMO he likes to use the regular season, or at least the first half to two-thirds or so of it, to try out the lineups he *wishes* would work. He knew Stubbs sucked as a leadoff man, but he kept running him out there hoping and praying the light would eventually come on. Same with Cozart this year. And a number of others in the past.
    The problem is, it shouldn't have taken him 600 plate appearances to figure out that Cozart shouldn't bat near the top of the lineup.

    Trying something you "wish" worked is dumb. I will come out and be blunt about it. Do what you think "will" work. Not what you hope works. Not what you wish would work. What will work.

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  9. #380
    The Boss dougdirt's Avatar
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    Re: Brian Kenny crushing Dusty on Twitter

    Quote Originally Posted by bucksfan2 View Post
    The problem I have with guys like Kenny who have made it their shtick to bash every move that doesn't go by the new age playbook. They look at a baseball game and think that what the number say you should do regardless of anything else. Run probabilities are nice and all, but it fails to take context into the situation. If you have Choo on 1st or 2nd, 0 outs, Heisey up, with Wainwright on the mound, no score in the bottom of the 6th I don't have a problem with a sac bunt to play for one run. You can throw run probabilities out there all you want, but in a scoreless pitchers dual, one run makes a massive difference.

    I tire of the "you should have done this" or "you should have done that" without knowing all the information that a manager makes.
    I don't think anyone who gets sabermetrics would say to follow it blindly. Of course you need to assess the situation. I think the 6th might still be a bit too soon for a sac bunt, but in a game like that I don't have a gripe about it in the 7th or later. It is doing so earlier in the game that just seems like a poor idea.

  10. #381
    Et tu, Brutus? Brutus's Avatar
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    Re: Brian Kenny crushing Dusty on Twitter

    Quote Originally Posted by dougdirt View Post
    The problem is, it shouldn't have taken him 600 plate appearances to figure out that Cozart shouldn't bat near the top of the lineup.

    Trying something you "wish" worked is dumb. I will come out and be blunt about it. Do what you think "will" work. Not what you hope works. Not what you wish would work. What will work.
    This was already pointed out to you in another thread, but it didn't take him nearly that long nor should it have. Cozart OPS'd something like .879 in the two-hole last season. There was no reason for Dusty to make a change until this year.
    "No matter how good you are, you're going to lose one-third of your games. No matter how bad you are you're going to win one-third of your games. It's the other third that makes the difference." ~Tommy Lasorda

  11. #382
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    Re: Brian Kenny crushing Dusty on Twitter

    Quote Originally Posted by Raisor View Post
    Let me ask a general question:

    Some of you that are defending Dusty, are you doing because you honestly think he's a good to great manager, is it because he gets slammed so much, or is it both? Neither?
    Because the majority of his job is unseen and his critics focus on the lineup like that's 98% of the reason he exists as a MLB manager.

    It's a wormhole argument

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  13. #383
    Pimpin...literally!!! dubc47834's Avatar
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    Re: Brian Kenny crushing Dusty on Twitter

    Quote Originally Posted by RedEye View Post
    They keep going on because the responses in the other direction continue not to hear their points and to respond with platitudes like "If he's a bad manager, why does he keep getting hired?" or "Everyone else is doing it."

    These are, unfortunately, neither responses to the critiques at hand nor relevant points in the same debate.
    The reason I come back with those arguments are because people like you continue to bash away. Look at past threads I have posted in, I stay calm, cool, and collected until the Dusty bashing starts, then imget irritated. If the bashers would just make their point then leave it alone i think most of us could live with that. That's not what happens, they keep beating the dead horse. Then, when someone makes a point on Dusty's side it is always discredited. When Dusty is fired the next manager will be bashed the same way, mostly by the same people who are never satisfied!!! I want a WS championship also, but at the end of the year 1 team wins it. As long as my team has a chance at the end and plays hard, that's all I ask for. If that doesn't happen, then the manager needs to go. I could care less if a manager uses sabermetrics, his gut feeling, or rock paper scissors. As long as my team wins!

  14. #384
    The Boss dougdirt's Avatar
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    Re: Brian Kenny crushing Dusty on Twitter

    Quote Originally Posted by Brutus View Post
    This was already pointed out to you in another thread, but it didn't take him nearly that long nor should it have. Cozart OPS'd something like .879 in the two-hole last season. There was no reason for Dusty to make a change until this year.
    And as I pointed out in that same thread most of his time came in the #1 spot that year and he hit .223/.262/.379 over 471 plate appearances in 2012. Cozart didn't hit in the #2 spot more than 3 days in a row in 2012 except for the first 10 days of the season and the last 10 days of the season. Dusty hit him leadoff almost the entire season with a .262 OBP.

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  16. #385
    Box of Frogs edabbs44's Avatar
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    Re: Brian Kenny crushing Dusty on Twitter

    Quote Originally Posted by Raisor View Post
    Let me ask a general question:

    Some of you that are defending Dusty, are you doing because you honestly think he's a good to great manager, is it because he gets slammed so much, or is it both? Neither?
    For me it is because I honestly believe that Dusty is not a material problem for this team. My belief is that certain individuals on this board will go after the easy targets rather than look at the entire situation objectively.

    If someone told you before the season that, at the 120 game mark, due to injury:

    - Cueto would have given us 49 innings
    - Marshall 7
    - Ludwick less than one game
    - Broxton 27 innings
    - Hanigan 46 games

    And the Reds would be in a playoff spot at this stage, would anyone expect anything more? And we think that Dusty hitting certain people 2nd is really what is hurting this team?

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  18. #386
    Et tu, Brutus? Brutus's Avatar
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    Re: Brian Kenny crushing Dusty on Twitter

    Quote Originally Posted by dougdirt View Post
    And as I pointed out in that same thread most of his time came in the #1 spot that year and he hit .223/.262/.379 over 471 plate appearances in 2012. Cozart didn't hit in the #2 spot more than 3 days in a row in 2012 except for the first 10 days of the season and the last 10 days of the season. Dusty hit him leadoff almost the entire season with a .262 OBP.
    So your point about needing 600 PAs to figure out he didn't belong in the two-hole is irrelevant, since he didn't spend most of his time last year in the two-hole.
    "No matter how good you are, you're going to lose one-third of your games. No matter how bad you are you're going to win one-third of your games. It's the other third that makes the difference." ~Tommy Lasorda

  19. #387
    The Boss dougdirt's Avatar
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    Re: Brian Kenny crushing Dusty on Twitter

    Quote Originally Posted by edabbs44 View Post

    And the Reds would be in a playoff spot at this stage, would anyone expect anything more? And we think that Dusty hitting certain people 2nd is really what is hurting this team?
    Yes, I do believe that the guys Dusty hits second is really hurting this team. Is it the biggest problem? Of course not. Injuries have been. But Dusty can't do anything about that. He can easily do something about the crappy #2 guys or that terrible #4 hitter he has used for the last 8 weeks who has produced like a 5th outfielder at the plate.

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  21. #388
    The Boss dougdirt's Avatar
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    Re: Brian Kenny crushing Dusty on Twitter

    Quote Originally Posted by Brutus View Post
    So your point about needing 600 PAs to figure out he didn't belong in the two-hole is irrelevant, since he didn't spend most of his time last year in the two-hole.
    You misread me. I said he shouldn't bat near the top of the lineup. I didn't say #2 spot.

  22. #389
    Box of Frogs edabbs44's Avatar
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    Re: Brian Kenny crushing Dusty on Twitter

    Quote Originally Posted by RedsManRick View Post
    On net, I do not think Dusty's managing is the primary reason the Reds are underperforming, no. I do think Dusty's managing has cost the Reds runs, if not wins, on net.

    But more to the point, I was trying to point out precisely that Kenny doesn't have anything against Dusty personally -- just "bad" managerial decision-making.

    If you guys are all worked up because Kenny is actively pushing sabermetrics instead of just being a generic analyst holistically considering the goings-on of the sport, I don't think anybody would disagree with you that that's what he's doing, including Kenny himself.
    The Nats have 6 guys with 100 or more PAs and sub .270 OB%, 3 of whom have hit leadoff and 3 of whom have hit 2nd. And yet he says this a few days ago:

    Reds have 3 guys with sub .270 OB%. Horrifically low. All 3 have hit in 2 spot. It really is quite remarkable.

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  24. #390
    Box of Frogs edabbs44's Avatar
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    Re: Brian Kenny crushing Dusty on Twitter

    Quote Originally Posted by dougdirt View Post
    Yes, I do believe that the guys Dusty hits second is really hurting this team. Is it the biggest problem? Of course not. Injuries have been. But Dusty can't do anything about that. He can easily do something about the crappy #2 guys or that terrible #4 hitter he has used for the last 8 weeks who has produced like a 5th outfielder at the plate.
    I can't defend the #2 hitters, however one thing to think about is the Reds are leading the majors in sac bunts by #2 hitters. Just think how many times he'd take the bat out of a better hitter's hands if there was a change made there.

    Regarding Phillips, I think it is somewhat unfair to go after Dusty here. We know BP isn't as bad as what he has shown in the past 2 months. What is Dusty supposed to do? Time it? If Jay were to go into one of his 4-6 week downward spirals starting today, would you advocate him being dropped in the order?

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