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Thread: Pete Rose, a block away and impossibly far from the Hall of Fame

  1. #16
    The Boss dougdirt's Avatar
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    Re: Pete Rose, a block away and impossibly far from the Hall of Fame

    Quote Originally Posted by lidspinner View Post
    I never once thought you were lying or would lie....I admire your professionalism with Baseball and how you handle your opinions.....I was merely asking because most people I debate Pete rose topics with see far from educated about Pete....now, I am not saying your not educated simply because you did not read the dowd, but reading it from from to back and in its 100% entirety, I was educated to a completely different phase of "the Pete Rose life"......I went from being a fan but still someone who was mad and hurt and embarrassed that my childhood favorite player was a cheat, to seeing a different side of the whole story.

    Let me give just one example....I have hundreds but this is a simple example. A bookie in the report had just filed bankruptcy and was not doing good as a book maker or in his real career as a restaurant owner.....Pete had used this bookie for about 2 years off and on.....this bookie was paid 100k for his testimony by an associate of Dowds....this "bookie" basically had 1 client and that client was Pete.....now, once you research this cat and see that he was truly not a bookie, yet was just a friend of Pete's that Pete would use to place his bets then you also can find how's Mr Dowd referred to this one guys testimony to about 95% of his "findings".......again, I am not saying Pete was innocent as even Pete himself has said he used this restaurant owner as his bookie, but this guy was paid and paid well and was broke.....it doesn't prove innocence but I do think it proves that some of the report could have been forged but "bookies" who were financially paid very well to provide info on Pete....I have a hard time putting my faith in a person who is only giving his side of the story based on how well he is paid.

    Lets fast forward to the biogenesis report.....the owner has been paid by MLB....we don't know how much just yet but we know that baseball sent people to his house and offered money to talk.....think about that, he already has "dirt" on all these players cheating, you think he might create a little more dirt or make it sound a little worse than it truly is if he thinks MLB is going to keep coughing up the coin? Sure he is. So if arod bought hgh just once from this guy and he has 100% proof, he might tell MLB that Alex bought hgh 100 times just to keep them wanting more info and paying more moment,,..after all, who is going to believe Alex? This whistle blower has already proved that Alex bought hgh when Alex denied it....so who is going to believe Alex now? All the while this biogenesis owner is sitting back making tons of cash by telling lies and possible forging documents to prove his lie....all they have is written on paper....he could have wrote those names down on paper once he realized MLB would pay topmdollar for good info on good players......think about it, how many AAA players are on the list? How many .200 average hitters? The guy gave big time names.....maybe that's all he helped, but just maybe he is telling a fib in order to make some cash, just as I think some bookies did in the dowd.....in both cases they are still wrong and stil need to be punished but I just don't know how much I can trust.

    Reading the dowd will open some eyes if you read it with an open mind...if your already convinced that Pete gambled on every reds game and gambled them to lose then reading it might not help your opinion any.
    I don't know if Pete ever gambled on the Reds to lose. Frankly though, it doesn't matter. He gambled on the game. A lot. For years and years. He eventually admitted to it. At this point, nothing in the Dowd Report matters because Pete's own words say that he gambled on the game while playing and while managing.

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  3. #17
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    Re: Pete Rose, a block away and impossibly far from the Hall of Fame

    Quote Originally Posted by joshua View Post
    Cobb was 1,000x the scumbag Pete, Bonds or McGwire ever were. If you want to protect whatever imaginary integrity the you believe the hall has, protest to get Cobb kicked out.

    If trash like Cobb get 98% of the vote, then Pete, Bonds etc. at least deserve to be on the ballot
    Cobb DID NOT bet on baseball. Cobb DID NOT shoot himself full of steroids. During his day, Cobb played the game with the same hard nosed style that Rose was famous for. Was Cobb an arse? Yeah. Temper? Yeah. But Cobb also mellowed out and came to grips about who he was and made an effort to change before he was inducted and did so for his own peace of mind, not for a pay check as Rose did. To put Cobb in with Rose and Bonds is a stretch.
    Last edited by armybrat45103; 08-03-2013 at 06:09 PM.

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    Re: Pete Rose, a block away and impossibly far from the Hall of Fame

    actually brat, Cobb was known to bet on baseball and was, with Tris Speaker brought before the commissioner for possible disbarment. They were "exonerated" though sportswriters investigating the whole debacle now say there was actually quite a bit of evidence damning both famous players. Baseball didn't want another huge blackeye so soon after the Blacksox scandal and the matter was swept away.

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    Re: Pete Rose, a block away and impossibly far from the Hall of Fame

    rose hurt the careers of Nick Esasky and Rob Murphy

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    Re: Pete Rose, a block away and impossibly far from the Hall of Fame

    Quote Originally Posted by armybrat45103 View Post
    Cobb DID NOT bet on baseball. Cobb DID NOT shoot himself full of steroids. During his day, Cobb played the game with the same hard nosed style that Rose was famous for. Was Cobb an arse? Yeah. Temper? Yeah. But Cobb also mellowed out and came to grips about who is was and made an effort to change before he was inducted and did so for his own peace of mind, not for a pay check as Rose did. To put Cobb in with Rose and Bonds is a stretch.
    Cobb was no angel and he had the reputation of being very mean man but Cobb was an incredibly charitable and generous man. I get very tired of people rewriting history to make him to out be some type of devil.

    Here is an excellent article that makes an excellent case that this racist stuff against Cobb is very much overblown by the media.

    http://bleacherreport.com/articles/4...s-not-a-racist
    "Boys, I'm one of those umpires that misses 'em every once in a while so if it's close, you'd better hit it." Cal Hubbard

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    Re: Pete Rose, a block away and impossibly far from the Hall of Fame

    Quote Originally Posted by RedlegJake View Post
    actually brat, Cobb was known to bet on baseball and was, with Tris Speaker brought before the commissioner for possible disbarment. They were "exonerated" though sportswriters investigating the whole debacle now say there was actually quite a bit of evidence damning both famous players. Baseball didn't want another huge blackeye so soon after the Blacksox scandal and the matter was swept away.
    The key word here is exonerated. We can make all kinds of assumptions 70 years later as to why, but the fact remains that he was not found to have betted on baseball and they did not pursue it further. Enough for me.

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    Re: Pete Rose, a block away and impossibly far from the Hall of Fame

    Actually baseball had a letter from Dutch Leonard, a pitcher at the time. Essentially, Speaker and Cobb met under the stands to throw a game, because the second place team did receive cash at the end of the season.

    Because of Cobb and Speaker's actions--Cobb lost his managerial gig with the Tigers and was released. Only to be picked up the following year by the Philadelphia A's.

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    Re: Pete Rose, a block away and impossibly far from the Hall of Fame

    Exonerated.....could you imagine if Cobb was in today's game with today's media? Or even the media when Pete played? Cobb was exonerated as to not give the game the black eye, it's almost been wrote off as fact that Cobb was thought of as doing no better than the 8 idiots with the sox......now, we have no proof so all we can do it look at the facts, and the facts say he was innocent......so I am fine with giving him a pass but he still has to be part of the equation when evaluating the integrity of the HOF......doesn't make the hall bad by no means, but Ty Cobb still is down in a ton of literature as being a prick and a known associate to gamblers and was known to gamble on baseball frequently.....but again, as far as facts go, Ty is innocent......I have more issues with the PED users anyhow...they affect so many more facets of the game than a guy betting on his team to win....I also can't stand the fact that baseball allows cocaine users and wife beaters to roam free is the league....cocaine was more of an issue in the 80's and 90's than it is now but they existed and baseball did not run them away. That frustrates me...sorry to get off topic

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    Re: Pete Rose, a block away and impossibly far from the Hall of Fame

    Research Kenesaw Mountain Landis then get back with me if you still think he would be the type to sweep things under a rug.

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    Re: Pete Rose, a block away and impossibly far from the Hall of Fame

    Quote Originally Posted by armybrat45103 View Post
    The Hall of Fame is about more than stats. It is also about integrity, honor, and professionalism. Bonds and Rose fail, miserably, on all accounts. Rose became a clown when he started chasing the dollar bill anywhere it would lead him and became an embarrassment for baseball, the city of Cincinnati, his family, and himself. The fact that people still defend this joke is beyond me. Should he be honored in the same hall as Ruth, Aaron, Bench, Morgan, etc. No way, IMO. There are items which lament Rose's accomplishments. That is enough. Why slime a building of honor by allowing Rose and Bonds in? Knowing Rose, he will probably demand cash (no checks) to show up anyway.
    That shrine is full of a-holes, bigots and outlaws who make Pete Rose look like Ned Flanders. I respect your opinion if you feel he should be barred for eternity, but not on the basis of any kind of honor and integrity.
    Rounding third and heading for home...

  13. #26
    The Boss dougdirt's Avatar
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    Re: Pete Rose, a block away and impossibly far from the Hall of Fame

    Quote Originally Posted by BluegrassRedleg View Post
    That shrine is full of a-holes, bigots and outlaws who make Pete Rose look like Ned Flanders. I respect your opinion if you feel he should be barred for eternity, but not on the basis of any kind of honor and integrity.
    I get what you are saying, but no, they don't make Pete look like Ned Flanders. Pete is a liar, a gambler and a cheater (on women). There are certainly worse in the HOF, but let's not take things overboard.

  14. #27
    THAT'S A FACT JACK!! GAC's Avatar
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    Re: Pete Rose, a block away and impossibly far from the Hall of Fame

    Quote Originally Posted by NorCal Reds Fan View Post
    Personally, I think it's ridiculous that players like Rose and Bonds are kept out of the HOF. It's a bunch of self-important writers, many of whom haven't even covered baseball in any meaningful way for years, who arrogantly and self-righteously appoint themselves as the "guardians" of baseball. Please. Pete Rose should be in, and as much as I don't care for Bonds, his Ruthian-type numbers dwarfed his contemporaries and he also belongs.
    The difference is though -at least IMO - is that while Rose broke a rule concerning gambling, his "Ruthian-type numbers", unlike Bonds, didn't come from performance-enhancing drugs.

    Bonds was a helluva ballplayer. IMO, with his natural talent and ability alone (like his Dad), he would have put up solid career numbers that would have probably guaranteed him a spot in the HOF.

    But his ego got in the way when he saw what McGwire and Sosa were doing, and all the attention they were getting, and he used steroids which, IMO, inflated those numbers to a certain degree.

    Rose not only broke a rule, but IMO, due to his ego, flaunted it, and deserved to be punished, and punished severely. But to what degree of severity? Isn't almost 25 years enough? Even criminals within our society, who have done far worse then a Pete Rose, are given the opportunity at a second chance.

    Pete Rose not only lived for the game of baseball, gave it everything he got, but contributed greatly to the game. And while his gambling shouldn't (and won't be) forgotten - he'll always have that hanging over his head the rest of his life no matter what - those wrong actions shouldn't overshadow, or cause us to ignore, what he contributed to the game.

    Some sort of compromise needs to be reached between MLB and Pete Rose. IMO, it has gone on long enough. And I think most of us who are now older, and grew up as a kid with Rose, the player, would agree.

    He should be in the HOF for what he accomplished on that field. He should never be allowed to manage again at the major league level; but I think Pete - and I think it's something he'd love to do - should be allowed to work somehow within the ranks of the minors.

    Give the guy a chance to redeem himself somehow towards a game that was his passion in life while he's still alive.

    That's my take.
    "panic" only comes from having real expectations

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    I hate the Cubs LoganBuck's Avatar
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    Re: Pete Rose, a block away and impossibly far from the Hall of Fame

    Because of my extreme disdain for all things Pete Rose, I have never been to Gold Star Chilli.
    The Sox traded Bullfrog the only player they've got for Shottenhoffen. Four-eyes Shottenhoffen a utility infielder. They've got a whole team of utility infielders.

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    Re: Pete Rose, a block away and impossibly far from the Hall of Fame

    Quote Originally Posted by armybrat45103 View Post
    Research Kenesaw Mountain Landis then get back with me if you still think he would be the type to sweep things under a rug.
    I have researched Kennesaw and yes, for the game he loved, and for what he perceived as the greater good he would, and most certainly did, sweep it under the rug. He often acted with disregard for facts, or for evidence, throwing out players merely suspected of wrongdoing, while turning a blind eye to others - the difference was always the impact on the game in his mind. Cobb became a much better man later in life, when the competitive fires that burned so fiercely in baseball died out. I don't argue against his inclusion in the HoF. Similar to the way baseball turned a blind eye to steroids in the 90s and 00s, baseball had turned a blind eye to gambling since its inception until it became such a scandal that the game was threatened with ruin by the Black Sox scandal. The owners parsimonious ways also had players looking for means to add to their income and gambling was the answer for some. It was WIDESPREAD and did not end with the Series scandal but lingered behind the scenes through the twenties before it was pretty much eliminated by the commissioners strong handling and stiff penalties. Cobb and Speaker threatened retaliatory suits and the evidence was circumstantial, both were huge stars and Landis felt, I believe, that both had paid a penalty already, and that baseball was better served NOT banning them.
    Last edited by RedlegJake; 08-04-2013 at 09:41 AM.

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    Re: Pete Rose, a block away and impossibly far from the Hall of Fame

    Quote Originally Posted by dougdirt View Post
    I get what you are saying, but no, they don't make Pete look like Ned Flanders. Pete is a liar, a gambler and a cheater (on women). There are certainly worse in the HOF, but let's not take things overboard.
    I don't even want to think of the percentage of players in the hall that cheated on their wives. Pete did lie for a long time, but so did Giamatti and MLB in his case. Here is a copy of a post I made on ORG about it that got buried quickly.



    /The Pete Rose deal with the lifetime ban and a chance to appeal every year was always a shady deal in my opinion. As I recall, the deal stated that MLB could not state that Pete bet on baseball. However, that is basically what they did as soon as the deal was announced.

    I think Pete and his lawyers knew that MLB had the evidence. So they agreed to the lifetime ban with a chance to appeal every year. They believed that since baseball couldn't say he bet on baseball, that he would be reinstated in a year or two. They were counting on using a lawyer technicality escape clause.

    I never understood how Giamatti and MLB could basically sign an agreement with Rose and then break it the next day in a press conference. I believe there is no way Pete believed it would be a lifetime ban, otherwise he never would have signed it./


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