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Thread: Pete Rose, a block away and impossibly far from the Hall of Fame

  1. #31
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    Re: Pete Rose, a block away and impossibly far from the Hall of Fame

    Quote Originally Posted by armybrat45103 View Post
    Research Kenesaw Mountain Landis then get back with me if you still think he would be the type to sweep things under a rug.
    Like not allowing blacks to play baseball and then sweeping that under the rug as something other than what it was.

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  3. #32
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    Re: Pete Rose, a block away and impossibly far from the Hall of Fame

    Quote Originally Posted by NorCal Reds Fan View Post
    Personally, I think it's ridiculous that players like Rose and Bonds are kept out of the HOF. It's a bunch of self-important writers, many of whom haven't even covered baseball in any meaningful way for years, who arrogantly and self-righteously appoint themselves as the "guardians" of baseball. Please. Pete Rose should be in, and as much as I don't care for Bonds, his Ruthian-type numbers dwarfed his contemporaries and he also belongs.
    Pete Rose is NOT on the ballot. The writers have NO control over that.

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    Re: Pete Rose, a block away and impossibly far from the Hall of Fame

    agree great post, and tony cloninger nailed those grnd slams off ray sadecki

  5. #34
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    Re: Pete Rose, a block away and impossibly far from the Hall of Fame

    Quote Originally Posted by Goose View Post
    I don't even want to think of the percentage of players in the hall that cheated on their wives. Pete did lie for a long time, but so did Giamatti and MLB in his case. Here is a copy of a post I made on ORG about it that got buried quickly.



    /The Pete Rose deal with the lifetime ban and a chance to appeal every year was always a shady deal in my opinion. As I recall, the deal stated that MLB could not state that Pete bet on baseball. However, that is basically what they did as soon as the deal was announced.

    I think Pete and his lawyers knew that MLB had the evidence. So they agreed to the lifetime ban with a chance to appeal every year. They believed that since baseball couldn't say he bet on baseball, that he would be reinstated in a year or two. They were counting on using a lawyer technicality escape clause.

    I never understood how Giamatti and MLB could basically sign an agreement with Rose and then break it the next day in a press conference. I believe there is no way Pete believed it would be a lifetime ban, otherwise he never would have signed it./
    Maybe if Pete didn't want to be banned for life he shouldn't have broken a rule that he knew would lead to such a ban.

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    Re: Pete Rose, a block away and impossibly far from the Hall of Fame

    Quote Originally Posted by GAC View Post

    Rose not only broke a rule, but IMO, due to his ego, flaunted it, and deserved to be punished, and punished severely. But to what degree of severity? Isn't almost 25 years enough? Even criminals within our society, who have done far worse then a Pete Rose, are given the opportunity at a second chance.
    They don't all get a second chance. Some are punished for life. Just like Pete.

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    Re: Pete Rose, a block away and impossibly far from the Hall of Fame

    Quote Originally Posted by dougdirt View Post
    Maybe if Pete didn't want to be banned for life he shouldn't have broken a rule that he knew would lead to such a ban.
    I didn't say anything about that, was just pointing out the shadiness of Giamatti and MLB. Makes me wonder about their honesty and ethics as well. Something to think about as they go after ARod and others.

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    Re: Pete Rose, a block away and impossibly far from the Hall of Fame

    Quote Originally Posted by Goose View Post
    I didn't say anything about that, was just pointing out the shadiness of Giamatti and MLB. Makes me wonder about their honesty and ethics as well. Something to think about as they go after ARod and others.
    I don't think anything they did was shady. They clearly had the evidence. They weren't supposed to tell the truth about it and they did? That isn't shady IMO. The report was going to come out even if they didn't say anything. People were going to ask questions. Pete wasn't just going to all of a sudden vanish from the game and no one was going to ask why?

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    Re: Pete Rose, a block away and impossibly far from the Hall of Fame

    Quote Originally Posted by RedlegJake View Post
    I have researched Kennesaw and yes, for the game he loved, and for what he perceived as the greater good he would, and most certainly did, sweep it under the rug. He often acted with disregard for facts, or for evidence, throwing out players merely suspected of wrongdoing, while turning a blind eye to others - the difference was always the impact on the game in his mind. Cobb became a much better man later in life, when the competitive fires that burned so fiercely in baseball died out. I don't argue against his inclusion in the HoF. Similar to the way baseball turned a blind eye to steroids in the 90s and 00s, baseball had turned a blind eye to gambling since its inception until it became such a scandal that the game was threatened with ruin by the Black Sox scandal. The owners parsimonious ways also had players looking for means to add to their income and gambling was the answer for some. It was WIDESPREAD and did not end with the Series scandal but lingered behind the scenes through the twenties before it was pretty much eliminated by the commissioners strong handling and stiff penalties. Cobb and Speaker threatened retaliatory suits and the evidence was circumstantial, both were huge stars and Landis felt, I believe, that both had paid a penalty already, and that baseball was better served NOT banning them.
    We are going to have to agree to disagree on that. Landis was a man on a mission and that mission was to rid baseball of gambling. Had Cobb been involved, Landis would have sent in a mob to take him to the gallows.

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    Re: Pete Rose, a block away and impossibly far from the Hall of Fame

    Quote Originally Posted by dougdirt View Post
    I don't think anything they did was shady. They clearly had the evidence. They weren't supposed to tell the truth about it and they did? That isn't shady IMO. The report was going to come out even if they didn't say anything. People were going to ask questions. Pete wasn't just going to all of a sudden vanish from the game and no one was going to ask why?
    Agreeing to one thing and doing the opposite the next day is shady in my book.

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    Re: Pete Rose, a block away and impossibly far from the Hall of Fame

    Quote Originally Posted by dougdirt View Post
    I don't think anything they did was shady. They clearly had the evidence. They weren't supposed to tell the truth about it and they did? That isn't shady IMO. The report was going to come out even if they didn't say anything. People were going to ask questions. Pete wasn't just going to all of a sudden vanish from the game and no one was going to ask why?

    you dont think paying a bookie enough money to assure that he never has to work again is not shady? basically, MLB paid a criminal(s) money to tell his side of the story....then a month after the bookies original interview with Dowds associates, paid him again for more testimony.....to me that is shady. MLB basically gave the bookie full authority to spice up his story for more money knowing that Pete truly could not fight any story he told because Pete did in fact use this bookie and Pete knew no one would believe him now......That is shady.

    You want to pay me for some dirt I have on Pete then fine, pay me....but paying me enough to assure that I live well from now on is a little much....to me that screams of something fishy.

    There is a reason law enforcement only pays their confidential informants a small amount of money and only pay more based on actual convictions....its because a criminal will lie if he thinks the lie will gain him more money. Bart Giamatti authorized the payment to more than one criminal in the investigation of Pete Rose....those statements were never used by the govt or the IRS, why? because the govt and the IRS knew those statements were nothing more than hogwash and they would never hold in a court of law......yet MLB used those same statements to ban a guy for life.

    please do not excuse my defense of Pete as a pass to what he done....he needed to be punished, he was guilty of betting on baseball and I have no complaints at all with that.....I am simply implying that the manner in which MLB investigated Pete was shady and more than likely full of errors and lies..

  12. #41
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    Re: Pete Rose, a block away and impossibly far from the Hall of Fame

    Quote Originally Posted by RedlegJake View Post
    I have researched Kennesaw and yes, for the game he loved, and for what he perceived as the greater good he would, and most certainly did, sweep it under the rug. He often acted with disregard for facts, or for evidence, throwing out players merely suspected of wrongdoing, while turning a blind eye to others - the difference was always the impact on the game in his mind. Cobb became a much better man later in life, when the competitive fires that burned so fiercely in baseball died out. I don't argue against his inclusion in the HoF. Similar to the way baseball turned a blind eye to steroids in the 90s and 00s, baseball had turned a blind eye to gambling since its inception until it became such a scandal that the game was threatened with ruin by the Black Sox scandal. The owners parsimonious ways also had players looking for means to add to their income and gambling was the answer for some. It was WIDESPREAD and did not end with the Series scandal but lingered behind the scenes through the twenties before it was pretty much eliminated by the commissioners strong handling and stiff penalties. Cobb and Speaker threatened retaliatory suits and the evidence was circumstantial, both were huge stars and Landis felt, I believe, that both had paid a penalty already, and that baseball was better served NOT banning them.
    Cobb was age 41 when he retired and Speaker was age 40. Both men had previously managed and had career winning percentages as managers north of .500%. Cobb had managed the Tigers to one second place finish, while Speaker had managed the Indians to a pair of second place finishes along with a World Championship in 1920.
    Cobb and Speaker were therefore both relatively young superstar, future-Hall-of-Famers (though the HOF did not yet exist), with a history of success as managers, at the time they retired as players after the 1928 season. Despite that, neither man ever again managed in the major leagues.
    The rumor is that although neither man was suspended for gambling Landis quietly saw to it that neither man was ever offered a managerial position as a result of the investigation into the allegations.
    "Hey...Dad. Wanna Have A Catch?" Kevin Costner in "Field Of Dreams."

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    Re: Pete Rose, a block away and impossibly far from the Hall of Fame

    Quote Originally Posted by Tony Cloninger View Post
    Pete Rose is NOT on the ballot. The writers have NO control over that.
    Fair point. But I've hear/read enough sanctimony from the "guardians" on high to hazard a guess that it wouldn't matter even if he were.

  14. #43
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    Re: Pete Rose, a block away and impossibly far from the Hall of Fame

    Quote Originally Posted by lidspinner View Post
    you dont think paying a bookie enough money to assure that he never has to work again is not shady? basically, MLB paid a criminal(s) money to tell his side of the story....then a month after the bookies original interview with Dowds associates, paid him again for more testimony.....to me that is shady. MLB basically gave the bookie full authority to spice up his story for more money knowing that Pete truly could not fight any story he told because Pete did in fact use this bookie and Pete knew no one would believe him now......That is shady.
    No, I don't. Is it shady that the prosecutor sets up a plea deal for criminals rather than going to trial for everyone, where in a lot of cases they get the plea deal to give information on others involved?

    You want to pay me for some dirt I have on Pete then fine, pay me....but paying me enough to assure that I live well from now on is a little much....to me that screams of something fishy.
    Or maybe you said "I am only talking for this amount of money" and well, they had to pay up. I'm sure a bookie would never try and get as much as he possibly could though.

    There is a reason law enforcement only pays their confidential informants a small amount of money and only pay more based on actual convictions....its because a criminal will lie if he thinks the lie will gain him more money. Bart Giamatti authorized the payment to more than one criminal in the investigation of Pete Rose....those statements were never used by the govt or the IRS, why? because the govt and the IRS knew those statements were nothing more than hogwash and they would never hold in a court of law......yet MLB used those same statements to ban a guy for life.
    Pete bet on the game. Let's not forget that. He has since admitted it. MLB had the proof.

  15. #44
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    Re: Pete Rose, a block away and impossibly far from the Hall of Fame

    Quote Originally Posted by GAC View Post
    The difference is though -at least IMO - is that while Rose broke a rule concerning gambling, his "Ruthian-type numbers", unlike Bonds, didn't come from performance-enhancing drugs.

    Bonds was a helluva ballplayer. IMO, with his natural talent and ability alone (like his Dad), he would have put up solid career numbers that would have probably guaranteed him a spot in the HOF.

    But his ego got in the way when he saw what McGwire and Sosa were doing, and all the attention they were getting, and he used steroids which, IMO, inflated those numbers to a certain degree.

    Rose not only broke a rule, but IMO, due to his ego, flaunted it, and deserved to be punished, and punished severely. But to what degree of severity? Isn't almost 25 years enough? Even criminals within our society, who have done far worse then a Pete Rose, are given the opportunity at a second chance.

    Pete Rose not only lived for the game of baseball, gave it everything he got, but contributed greatly to the game. And while his gambling shouldn't (and won't be) forgotten - he'll always have that hanging over his head the rest of his life no matter what - those wrong actions shouldn't overshadow, or cause us to ignore, what he contributed to the game.

    Some sort of compromise needs to be reached between MLB and Pete Rose. IMO, it has gone on long enough. And I think most of us who are now older, and grew up as a kid with Rose, the player, would agree.

    He should be in the HOF for what he accomplished on that field. He should never be allowed to manage again at the major league level; but I think Pete - and I think it's something he'd love to do - should be allowed to work somehow within the ranks of the minors.

    Give the guy a chance to redeem himself somehow towards a game that was his passion in life while he's still alive.

    That's my take.
    Here's the thing on PEDs, and I know I'm in the minority: I don't care. I really don't. Bonds, Clemens, Sosa, et al. were full-grown adults that voluntarily chose to use PEDs even with the risk of detrimental side-effects. While not "everyone" did it, it was during a time when a lot of things were allowed in MLB, and MLB essentially gave it all tacit approval with a wink here and a nod there. The 1994 strike was a signifcant blow to the popularity of the game, and if 'roid-fueled HRs got butts back in the seats and eyes on the TV screen, Selig & Co. were cool with it. And really, "steroids" were an issue going back to the 80s, notably with Jose Canseco...I can still recall the '88 ALCS and Red Sox fans chanting "STERRROIDS, STERRROIDS". And in '96, there was Brady Anderson hitting 50 HRs. MLB didn't care.

    I don't need self-righteous "guardians" to look out for my kids. That's my job. If they ever make the decision to take PEDs, that's my fault, not Barry Bonds', nor some writer for giving him a HOF vote.

    So the rules have changed now...now MLB "cares". Fine. The rules are known. Get caught, get suspended. I just think it's silly to say I'm going to apply circa 2010-henceforth rules to what you did in the 90's and early 00's.

    As for Pete Rose, I pretty much agree with you. To me, the good he did for the game: running to first on a walk, head-first dives/slides, balls-out hustle, far outweigh the betting. And I think he still could offer some "good" to the game if only allowed to do so.

    Either way, it's really just not a very big pebble in my shoe. On my List Of Things To Worry About, Pete Rose or Barry Bonds being the in HOF doesn't even get honorable mention. I think they and a few others should be in, but whether they are or not, oh well, I still have to get up to go to work tomorrow.

  16. #45
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    Re: Pete Rose, a block away and impossibly far from the Hall of Fame

    Pete Rose is trash. He was my favorite player as a kid. I even wore #14 three or four different years in his honor. Then I grew up, he got kicked out of baseball, and he embarrassed himself further by lying about it for far too many years. I won't even get into the kind of husband and father he's been. His problem has always been that he thinks of himself as bigger than the game. He still comes across that way in his interviews.

    He's desperate to get back in baseball because he knows someone will pay him in some capacity. That's all it's ever been about for Pete. He doesn't care about the game. He only cares about getting a paycheck at the expense of the game.
    "I talked to an advance scout that told me if Joey Votto and Albert Pujols were on the same team he'd advise his team to do the unthinkable...pitch around Votto to get to Pujols." - Buster Olney, ESPN

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