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Thread: Official waiver trade deadline thread (Sept. 30)

  1. #376
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    Re: Official waiver trade deadline thread (August 31)

    Sometimes we get too caught up on obp and ops. I'm pretty sure Alex Presley isn't a great loss and morneau will do more in the remainder of the season to help Pittsburgh win despite not being the player he once was. And btw a walk to extend the inning may lead to a run. A home run always equals at least one run. Since when is baseball more about getting more men on base and getting more bases than your opponent. That doesn't guarantee success and a win. It's a good indicator, but the only thing that guarantees a win is to score more runs than your opponent. I think we are mistaking an indicator that success could be occuring for success itself at times on RZ in general.
    Last edited by Old school 1983; 08-31-2013 at 06:43 PM.

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  3. #377
    One and a half men Patrick Bateman's Avatar
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    Re: Official waiver trade deadline thread (August 31)

    Quote Originally Posted by Old school 1983 View Post
    Sometimes we get too caught up on obp and ops. I'm pretty sure Alex Presley isn't a great loss and morneau will do more in the remainder of the season to help Pittsburgh win despite not being the player he once was. And btw a walk to extend the inning may lead to a run. A home run always equals at least one run. Since when is baseball more about getting more men on base and getting more bases than your opponent. That doesn't guarantee success and a win. It's a good indicator, but the only thing that guarantees a win is to score more runs than your opponent. I think we are mistaking an indicator that success could be occuring for success itself at times on RZ in general.
    So we should just ignore everything except homeruns then? A leadoff walk in the 9th has no value? Are all games suddenly 1 run affairs the moment the 9th inning hits? The 9th, like every other inning, follows normal run scoring rules. Acquiring bases and hitting for power is how you score runs. You need a combo of both.

    BTW, Morneau hasn't been a particularly good homerun hitter at 1st base for quite some time. And since when did homeruns guarantee wins?

  4. #378
    Et tu, Brutus? Brutus's Avatar
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    Re: Official waiver trade deadline thread (August 31)

    Quote Originally Posted by dougdirt View Post
    Pirates first baseman this year: .260/.336/.432 (117 OPS+)
    Justin Morneau this year: .259/.315/.426 (102 OPS+)
    That's really all that needs said. Thanks for posting, Doug.
    "No matter how good you are, you're going to lose one-third of your games. No matter how bad you are you're going to win one-third of your games. It's the other third that makes the difference." ~Tommy Lasorda

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    The Big Dog mth123's Avatar
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    Re: Official waiver trade deadline thread (August 31)

    Quote Originally Posted by Kc61 View Post
    I think Morneau would have been a wonderful pickup for the Reds. He is a lefty hitter who plays a little outfield. Pirates intend to use him as a fourth outfielder.

    Morneau could replace Xavier Paul. If I recalll, Morneau played with Votto in the WBC and could possibly give Votto a boost if they like each other.

    As I said elsewhere, it's hard for me to see how the Reds are maxed out. We're talking about adding one sixth of a player's salary.

    We can all speculate as to what the FO is thinking.
    One sixth of $14 Million equals $2.3333 Million. I'm guessing that's too much for this team. I'm not sure Morneau can play OF though.

    The Reds have passed on a few guys (Downs, Byrd, Dejesus, Morneau, Thornton, etc.) All are clearly upgrades vs. players on the roster. I just think money has to be the reason for turning down an upgrade that won't cost anything crippling talentwise. Passing on Dejesus was the worst move IMO.
    "All I can tell them is pick a good one and sock it." --BABE RUTH

    Having better players makes "the right time" or "the big hit" happen a lot more often. PLUS PLUS

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  7. #380
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    Re: Official waiver trade deadline thread (August 31)

    Quote Originally Posted by _Sir_Charles_ View Post
    I think powersackers makes a solid point. It's an upgrade. Period.
    Except the stats show that it isn't.

    The Pirates' OPS at first base this year has been better as a whole than Morneau's production.
    "No matter how good you are, you're going to lose one-third of your games. No matter how bad you are you're going to win one-third of your games. It's the other third that makes the difference." ~Tommy Lasorda

  8. #381
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    Re: Official waiver trade deadline thread (August 31)

    Quote Originally Posted by mth123 View Post
    One sixth of $14 Million equals $2.3333 Million. I'm guessing that's too much for this team. I'm not sure Morneau can play OF though.

    The Reds have passed on a few guys (Downs, Byrd, Dejesus, Morneau, Thornton, etc.) All are clearly upgrades vs. players on the roster. I just think money has to be the reason for turning down an upgrade that won't cost anything crippling talentwise. Passing on Dejesus was the worst move IMO.
    I agree. They're maxed out, but they're going to do everything possible to avoid saying so.

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    Re: Official waiver trade deadline thread (August 31)

    Quote Originally Posted by mth123 View Post
    One sixth of $14 Million equals $2.3333 Million. I'm guessing that's too much for this team. I'm not sure Morneau can play OF though.

    The Reds have passed on a few guys (Downs, Byrd, Dejesus, Morneau, Thornton, etc.) All are clearly upgrades vs. players on the roster. I just think money has to be the reason for turning down an upgrade that won't cost anything crippling talentwise. Passing on Dejesus was the worst move IMO.
    The DeJesus thing was a blessing. The guy is no better at this point than Xavier Paul. He is no longer effective against lefties and is only moderately above average against right-handers. His age and salary for next season would not have been cost effective. That was absolutely the right move passing on him and letting other teams play hot potato with him.

    Marlon Byrd was at least a little more justifable, especially if only to make sure Pittsburgh couldn't claim him.
    "No matter how good you are, you're going to lose one-third of your games. No matter how bad you are you're going to win one-third of your games. It's the other third that makes the difference." ~Tommy Lasorda

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  11. #383
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    Re: Official waiver trade deadline thread (August 31)

    Quote Originally Posted by mth123 View Post
    One sixth of $14 Million equals $2.3333 Million. I'm guessing that's too much for this team. I'm not sure Morneau can play OF though.
    I guess were not sure if he can play OF,as he never has. I guess the same thing could be said about him playing SS.

    The Pirates just upgraded a position where they actually get better production from already.

    Morneau can only play 1B and PH. His OPS is about 20 points higher than Xavier Paul who can actually play the OF somewhat. Paul also has a better HR/PA ratio. So if you really want that HR in the 9th inning, you gotta better chance calling on Paul.

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    The Big Dog mth123's Avatar
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    Re: Official waiver trade deadline thread (August 31)

    Quote Originally Posted by PuffyPig View Post
    I guess were not sure if he can play OF,as he never has. I guess the same thing could be said about him playing SS.

    The Pirates just upgraded a position where they actually get better production from already.

    Morneau can only play 1B and PH. His OPS is about 20 points higher than Xavier Paul who can actually play the OF somewhat. Paul also has a better HR/PA ratio. So if you really want that HR in the 9th inning, you gotta better chance calling on Paul.
    So why couldn't Morneau take those PH appearances from Hannahan? They only need to make a roster spot for one day. Ondrusek was used up last night. Send him down and make a spot. He's not pitching today anyway. He's an upgrade to the 25 man roster and another weapon for September.
    "All I can tell them is pick a good one and sock it." --BABE RUTH

    Having better players makes "the right time" or "the big hit" happen a lot more often. PLUS PLUS

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    indy_dave00 (08-31-2013), Old school 1983 (08-31-2013)

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    Re: Official waiver trade deadline thread (August 31)

    So by doing nothing we as fans should be happy?? The Pirates just went and ADDED to go for it in 2013. Our window is shrinking. All we heard was the Reds are ALL IN, But dont fix the issues. Funny how the Pirates didnt draw alot for years but find money to play with and by adding players that could help, will entice fans to BUY tickets.. Sending a message to their fans, they are going for it. While us Reds fans are told "We have better from the DLthan was out there" logic!! Ludwick isnt going to out hit Byrd this year WHO Walt should have claimed!! Watch it come down to Byrd, Morneau or Buck beating the Reds in the 1 game playoff. I dont want to hear how successful this year was if that happens..when Votto signed that huge contract BOB said it wouldnt defer this team to get better..Doesnt sound like that was the truth

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  16. #386
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    Re: Official waiver trade deadline thread (August 31)

    Quote Originally Posted by Patrick Bateman View Post
    So we should just ignore everything except homeruns then? A leadoff walk in the 9th has no value? Are all games suddenly 1 run affairs the moment the 9th inning hits? The 9th, like every other inning, follows normal run scoring rules. Acquiring bases and hitting for power is how you score runs. You need a combo of both.

    BTW, Morneau hasn't been a particularly good homerun hitter at 1st base for quite some time. And since when did homeruns guarantee wins?
    I never said that obp and ops were bad indicators of player or team performance. I think they are good indicators, and id have to be pretty dense to say otherwise, but by no means are they the end all be all like we assume at RZ a lot of the time. There are plenty of more indicators. Such as average HR productive outs plate approach and gasp RBI.

    I'm fully aware you acquire runs under the same circumstances in the 9th as any other inning but I'm equally as aware that every baseball game that has been won has been won because the winning team acquired more runs than their opponent not necessarily more bases and extra bases. Number of bases and extra bases is and indicator that runs may be created but not a definite. Just like a walk is a chance to create a run but a home run is a run guaranteed. And no home runs do not guarantee wins but they no more guarantee a win it not than a walk or by acquiring more bases than your opponent. You win games by scoring runs. You score runs by acquiring bases. But by acquiring more bases you do not necessarily guarantee yourself more runs than your opponent. It's is only an indicator that more runs crated may be occurring and that's what I was saying. It's an indicator of success not success itself and it is by no means the end all be all way to evaluate a player.

    And btw I do know morneau hadn't been the same player recently as in the past and I wasn't saying I want him in the reds. I was saying I think he'll probably contribute more to helping the pirates win down the stretch than Presley.

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    Member Tom Servo's Avatar
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    Re: Official waiver trade deadline thread (August 31)

    I just cannot wrap my head around the logic that acquiring Justin Morneau, Marlon Byrd, and John Buck means the Pirates are "ALL IN" and "exciting the fanbase". They are solid additions, nothing more, possibly less.
    "Since I've been with the Reds in 1989, we've never had a farm system this loaded," Bowden said. "If we were the New York Yankees and had unlimited dollars, we could have traded for Colon, (Jeff) Weaver, Rolen, (Cliff) Floyd, (Kenny) Rogers and Finley and gotten them all -- and still held onto our top five prospects. That's an amazing statement."

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    Re: Official waiver trade deadline thread (August 31)

    Quote Originally Posted by Tom Servo View Post
    I just cannot wrap my head around the logic that acquiring Justin Morneau, Marlon Byrd, and John Buck means the Pirates are "ALL IN" and "exciting the fanbase". They are solid additions, nothing more, possibly less.
    They added bats, where we get to see the non homerless Hanahan and Azturis off our mighty bench..woo that scares them, because Dusty wont use Paul if we need a 3 run jack before the 8th or 9th inning..

  20. #389
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    Re: Official waiver trade deadline thread (August 31)

    The Pirates needed bats, their pitching likely regresses and the bats go up.

    Net gain?

    We'll see.

  21. #390
    Viva la Rolen kaldaniels's Avatar
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    Re: Official waiver trade deadline thread (August 31)

    Latos Deal > (All these midseason Pirates deals)^2

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