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Thread: So Manny Parra has proven that you NEVER trade cheap starting pitching

  1. #16
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    Re: So Manny Parra has proven that you NEVER trade cheap starting pitching

    Quote Originally Posted by 5TimeWSChamps View Post
    For specialized relief help.

    Absolutely absurd, giving up Travis Wood for Sean Marshall. You can ALWAYS find LOOGY's abound, and Parra has been unreal lately, for the cost of nothing.
    He was also unreal bad to start. He's turned it around big time. He is one example.

    You making this so black and white is unrealistic. Although I may not have traded Wood for bullpen help necessarily, I wouldn't say that you never do this now because one crappy former starter has turned into a good reliever for two months.

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  3. #17
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    Re: So Manny Parra has proven that you NEVER trade cheap starting pitching

    Madsen, Broxton, and Marshall represent a lot of flushed money. Bad luck? Yeah, to some extent. I'd like to see those outlays go to bats in the future, which are safer bets (and better bets, given the changed landscape ofbaseball). Relievers were available at the deadline; hitters weren't.

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    Member wlf WV's Avatar
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    Re: So Manny Parra has proven that you NEVER trade cheap starting pitching

    I am jealous about the farm system and seemingly endless supply of major league hitters and pitchers the Cards seem to have.
    May the Lord bless

  6. #19
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    Re: So Manny Parra has proven that you NEVER trade cheap starting pitching

    Quote Originally Posted by Falls City Beer View Post
    Madsen, Broxton, and Marshall represent a lot of flushed money. Bad luck? Yeah, to some extent. I'd like to see those outlays go to bats in the future, which are safer bets (and better bets, given the changed landscape ofbaseball). Relievers were available at the deadline; hitters weren't.
    This, to me, is the key point (one might add Massett to the list above) and the question this thread poses catches it to some degree, even though it's obviously very loaded rhetorically. The Jocketty pattern has been to trade youth and longer-term value for very specific short term needs and then to pay pretty highly to retain those players. This looks great if the estimation of the team's chances has actually been accurate and you go on to win a WS; if not, well that's where we are. As payroll flexibility diminishes, injuries take on greater importance. I don't mind the Marshall trade, even though I was and am a big fan of Travis Wood. It was a risky trade for a really high quality reliever; looked great last year, this year not so much obviously. On Travis Wood's value, however, RZers tend to forget just how good he was for us in 2010 and how essential to the pennant drive that year. It wasn't lost on Cubs management.

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  8. #20
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    Re: So Manny Parra has proven that you NEVER trade cheap starting pitching

    I still like the Marshall trade and signing. Broxton is another matter. I was surprised by how well he did after lambasting the trade last year - for which I got pretty soundly spanked. Broxton's signing after the season was a huge miscalculation. I believe it was entirely due to expectation that Chapman would be in the rotation. Now it's wasted dollars, and for a guy who has been hurt more than he hasn't for quite awhile now.

  9. #21
    Winning the Human Race TheBigLebowski's Avatar
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    Re: So Manny Parra has proven that you NEVER trade cheap starting pitching

    Quote Originally Posted by RedlegJake View Post
    I still like the Marshall trade and signing. Broxton is another matter. I was surprised by how well he did after lambasting the trade last year - for which I got pretty soundly spanked. Broxton's signing after the season was a huge miscalculation. I believe it was entirely due to expectation that Chapman would be in the rotation. Now it's wasted dollars, and for a guy who has been hurt more than he hasn't for quite awhile now.
    Even if we fully expected Chapman to be in the rotation, we overpaid Broxton. We paid him for the title he was presumably going to be given rather than what his actual talents merited. The Broxton contract, regardless of the context, is Jocketty's biggest mistake as the Reds' GM thus far, in my not so humble opinion.
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  10. #22
    The Big Dog mth123's Avatar
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    Re: So Manny Parra has proven that you NEVER trade cheap starting pitching

    Maybe the issue isn't where Wood would slot into the rotation as much as what else they could have gotten for him. I didn't hate the deal at the time, but thought it was a little much for a reliever.
    "All I can tell them is pick a good one and sock it." --BABE RUTH

    Having better players makes "the right time" or "the big hit" happen a lot more often. PLUS PLUS

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  12. #23
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    Re: So Manny Parra has proven that you NEVER trade cheap starting pitching

    If not to Broxton, where would those dollars have gone? It's doubtful the Reds would have mustered enough cash to buy a LF in addition to Ludwick.
    "I prefer books and movies where the conflict isn't of the extreme cannibal apocalypse variety I guess." Redsfaithful

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    Re: So Manny Parra has proven that you NEVER trade cheap starting pitching

    Quote Originally Posted by Johnny Footstool View Post
    If not to Broxton, where would those dollars have gone? It's doubtful the Reds would have mustered enough cash to buy a LF in addition to Ludwick.
    Improvement at SS[?] Next year, at 3b[?] Considered together, the OPS of our SS/3b combination is better only than the combination of the Cubs, Miami, and STL. I don't see how the FO can ignore this for 2014 [see thread on the way our righties do against RHP's]

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    Re: So Manny Parra has proven that you NEVER trade cheap starting pitching

    I think many are overvalueing Travis Wood and his 4.48 xFIP (lifetime 4.45).

    I don't know how long he can be expected to have a BABIP in the low .240's, but for the record, he's done it since the start of the 2012 season, more than 1.5 years.

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  17. #26
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    Re: So Manny Parra has proven that you NEVER trade cheap starting pitching

    Quote Originally Posted by mth123 View Post
    Maybe the issue isn't where Wood would slot into the rotation as much as what else they could have gotten for him. I didn't hate the deal at the time, but thought it was a little much for a reliever.
    Marshall wasn't (isn't) just a reliever. He was producing at an elite level, according to some metrics, the most valuable reliever in baseball at the time. Some had him more productive than Mariano Rivera. Marshall was also just heading into his prime at the time of the trade. And last season, he continued his elite production.

    His only fault was getting injured this season.
    "Man, the pitch looks fast, even in slow motion." Thom Brennaman on Chapman's fastball.

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  19. #27
    Member Tom Servo's Avatar
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    Re: So Manny Parra has proven that you NEVER trade cheap starting pitching

    So what impact bat would you have gotten for Wood after 2011 when Wood had a 4.84 ERA?
    "Since I've been with the Reds in 1989, we've never had a farm system this loaded," Bowden said. "If we were the New York Yankees and had unlimited dollars, we could have traded for Colon, (Jeff) Weaver, Rolen, (Cliff) Floyd, (Kenny) Rogers and Finley and gotten them all -- and still held onto our top five prospects. That's an amazing statement."

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  21. #28
    Viva la Rolen kaldaniels's Avatar
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    Re: So Manny Parra has proven that you NEVER trade cheap starting pitching

    Quote Originally Posted by Tom Servo View Post
    So what impact bat would you have gotten for Wood after 2011 when Wood had a 4.84 ERA?
    That's a winner.

  22. #29
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    Re: So Manny Parra has proven that you NEVER trade cheap starting pitching

    The Reds might not have won the division last season without Marshall. That alone makes the trade a smart move.
    "Man, the pitch looks fast, even in slow motion." Thom Brennaman on Chapman's fastball.

  23. #30
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    Re: So Manny Parra has proven that you NEVER trade cheap starting pitching

    I really don't care what the Reds traded away to get Marshall. That's not been an issue. To me it's using a slenderer and slenderer amount of payroll space on relievers.

    What's done is done, however; just start tilting those "win now" contracts and trades toward the offense side and less on middle relievers.
    Last edited by Falls City Beer; 08-04-2013 at 12:12 PM.

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