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Thread: So Manny Parra has proven that you NEVER trade cheap starting pitching

  1. #31
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    Re: So Manny Parra has proven that you NEVER trade cheap starting pitching

    Quote Originally Posted by Johnny Footstool View Post
    If not to Broxton, where would those dollars have gone?.
    SS, catcher, 3rd, platoon bat in LF. You're right, the point isn't to save money by signing cheaper relievers, but it is to avoid having gaping black holes at 3/4 positions.

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  3. #32
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    Re: So Manny Parra has proven that you NEVER trade cheap starting pitching

    Only thing I really hate is the Broxton contract. And it's not a case of hating it now that it looks bad. I've been vocal about hating it since before the season started. It was just a completely idiotic move by a veteran GM. Just terrible.

  4. #33
    All Fired Up Revering4Blue's Avatar
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    Re: So Manny Parra has proven that you NEVER trade cheap starting pitching

    To this day, I'm still surprised that Travis Wood wasn't part of the package to San Diego which netted Latos. Was Volquez included because of salary reasons or did the Padres brass actually prefer Volquez over Wood?

    The best argument against dealing Wood at the time was the opinion that, at worst, Wood could fill Marshall's role adequately and at a non-prohibitive price. But, given the uncertainties of the contract statuses of Votto and Phillips at the time -- i.e win-now mode -- it's easy to see why WJ dealt for Marshall.

    One last point: The uncertainty of Chapman's role (starter or closer) had to have played a significant role, at least in my estimation, in the signings of Madsen and Broxton. I'm not certain that either signing would have occurred had Chapman's closing role been established at prior to the opening of this season or the prior season.
    "I have just been more than a little suspect of all the trades since the Willy (Scott Williamson) cash grab. That one left such a bad taste in my mouth that even a 1985 Dom Pérignon couldn't cleanse it." -- Creek14

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  6. #34
    The Big Dog mth123's Avatar
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    Re: So Manny Parra has proven that you NEVER trade cheap starting pitching

    Quote Originally Posted by 757690 View Post
    Marshall wasn't (isn't) just a reliever. He was producing at an elite level, according to some metrics, the most valuable reliever in baseball at the time. Some had him more productive than Mariano Rivera. Marshall was also just heading into his prime at the time of the trade. And last season, he continued his elite production.

    His only fault was getting injured this season.
    Yeah. He was good. I personally think this is a case where those metrics overstated his value.
    "All I can tell them is pick a good one and sock it." --BABE RUTH

    Having better players makes "the right time" or "the big hit" happen a lot more often. PLUS PLUS

  7. #35
    Worst Behavior. reds44's Avatar
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    Re: So Manny Parra has proven that you NEVER trade cheap starting pitching

    I must have missed where lefties who throw 95 grow on trees.

    Parra was a great buy low move by Walt. But alas, we're Reds fans so somehow we'll turn it into a negative.
    Quote Originally Posted by PuffyPig View Post
    Let's face it, you mis-hit the bun with the mustard squirter, no one will really care.

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  9. #36
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    Re: So Manny Parra has proven that you NEVER trade cheap starting pitching

    I didn't mind the Marshall move, even with his injury. May have been a slight overpay, but the Reds needed him last year. Not to mention, they were able to extend him and for reasonable money.

    Broxton is a different story. Felt that he was was the wrong target last year, but he did do well last season so not much lost. However, massively overpaying him to an extension might be Walt's worst move during his time in Cincinnati.

  10. #37
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    Re: So Manny Parra has proven that you NEVER trade cheap starting pitching

    Quote Originally Posted by Falls City Beer View Post
    I really don't care what the Reds traded away to get Marshall. That's not been an issue. To me it's using a slenderer and slenderer amount of payroll space on relievers.
    This is the crux of the issue for me as well.

    Marshall is an elite level RP and his extension is more than reasonable given the market rate for that kind of production, particularly when he figured to be the anchor for the Reds pen going forward. The problem is that the Reds have then followed up the extension by deciding to keep Chapman in the pen and paying Broxton top of the market money to stay.

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  12. #38
    Matt's Dad RANDY IN INDY's Avatar
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    Re: So Manny Parra has proven that you NEVER trade cheap starting pitching

    So if Manny Parra quits being "good" Manny Parra and reverts to being "bad" Manny Parra, what does that prove?
    Talent is God Given: be humble.
    Fame is man given: be thankful.
    Conceit is self given: be careful.

    John Wooden

  13. #39
    The Boss dougdirt's Avatar
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    Re: So Manny Parra has proven that you NEVER trade cheap starting pitching

    Quote Originally Posted by RANDY IN INDY View Post
    So if Manny Parra quits being "good" Manny Parra and reverts to being "bad" Manny Parra, what does that prove?
    That relievers are a very fickle bunch.

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  15. #40
    Matt's Dad RANDY IN INDY's Avatar
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    Re: So Manny Parra has proven that you NEVER trade cheap starting pitching

    So are starters.
    Talent is God Given: be humble.
    Fame is man given: be thankful.
    Conceit is self given: be careful.

    John Wooden

  16. #41
    Member tomnuetten's Avatar
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    Re: So Manny Parra has proven that you NEVER trade cheap starting pitching

    why does every trade has to be either a steal or a bust?

    why can it just be a good trade for both? the cubs got a starter for the future and the reds (already with one of the best rotations in baseball) got a great guy for the bullpen!

    so yeah parra is great at the moment and he´s the reason we don´t miss marshall that much at the moment, but it´s pretty interesting to see guys judge trades differently after one piece is underachieving or injured...

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  18. #42
    Party like it's 1990 Blitz Dorsey's Avatar
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    Re: So Manny Parra has proven that you NEVER trade cheap starting pitching

    Quote Originally Posted by Wonderful Monds View Post
    One problem:

    Sean Marshall is not a LOOGY.
    You're right. I'm not sure if "Glass Joe" has an acronym, but it sure isn't LOOGY.

  19. #43
    Party like it's 1990 Blitz Dorsey's Avatar
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    Re: So Manny Parra has proven that you NEVER trade cheap starting pitching

    Quote Originally Posted by Revering4Blue View Post
    To this day, I'm still surprised that Travis Wood wasn't part of the package to San Diego which netted Latos. Was Volquez included because of salary reasons or did the Padres brass actually prefer Volquez over Wood?

    The best argument against dealing Wood at the time was the opinion that, at worst, Wood could fill Marshall's role adequately and at a non-prohibitive price. But, given the uncertainties of the contract statuses of Votto and Phillips at the time -- i.e win-now mode -- it's easy to see why WJ dealt for Marshall.

    One last point: The uncertainty of Chapman's role (starter or closer) had to have played a significant role, at least in my estimation, in the signings of Madsen and Broxton. I'm not certain that either signing would have occurred had Chapman's closing role been established at prior to the opening of this season or the prior season.
    Volquez was a throw-in on that deal. Nothing more. Wood was the centerpiece of the Marshall trade. Big difference.

    In the Latos trade, the two main pieces were Alonso and Grandal (in no particular order). The Reds also WANTED to throw-in Volquez to dump his salary and because there was no longer room for him in the rotation anyway with the acquisition of Latos. The sticking point -- according to an interview Walt did after the fact -- was Brad Boxberger. Reds didn't want to include him, but eventually acquiesced. Good call on Walt's part. He won that trade by a landslide.

    It's alright to call a spade a spade. We won the Latos trade, lost the Marshall trade. Overall, I'll take that, uh, "trade." Haha.


  20. #44
    Member Wonderful Monds's Avatar
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    Re: So Manny Parra has proven that you NEVER trade cheap starting pitching

    Quote Originally Posted by Blitz Dorsey View Post
    You're right. I'm not sure if "Glass Joe" has an acronym, but it sure isn't LOOGY.
    Yeah, he's missed almost a whole year. It happens sometimes.

    Joey Votto missed most of last year too. Is he "Glass Joe" now?


    Oh, and the Reds haven't "lost" any trade yet. Travis Wood has put up around 3/4 of a season of a really good ERA built upon an unsustainable BABIP.
    They don't think it be like it is, but it do.
    Quote Originally Posted by Larry Schuler View Post
    He has also taught me that even when the Reds win it is important to focus on the fact that they could have lost.

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  22. #45
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    Re: So Manny Parra has proven that you NEVER trade cheap starting pitching

    Quote Originally Posted by 5TimeWSChamps View Post
    For specialized relief help.

    Absolutely absurd, giving up Travis Wood for Sean Marshall. You can ALWAYS find LOOGY's abound, and Parra has been unreal lately, for the cost of nothing.
    I've commented on this before. At the time it seemed like a great deal. The Reds got solid RP for unknown 2nd round draft talent that showed 4+ ERA in the NL.

    All you can really do at this point is look in hindsight and say that trade is looking worse and worse as Marshall continues to recover and Travis Wood seems to have made himself a solid #2 guy on the Cubs pitching staff.

    The Reds probably couldn't have gotten any more value out of him then than they did.


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