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Thread: So Manny Parra has proven that you NEVER trade cheap starting pitching

  1. #61
    Member mdccclxix's Avatar
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    Re: So Manny Parra has proven that you NEVER trade cheap starting pitching

    Jocketty's drafted players that were in the minors in 2007 and are now on the Cards:

    Allen Craig - 3 hitter
    Pete Kozma - SS
    Jon Jay - OF
    Daniel Descalso - UT
    Jamie Garcia

    Veterans acquired by Jocketty:
    Wainwright
    Molina
    Carpenter

    6 Years later that's a pretty decent amount of players still with the team and in important roles. They've continued drafting well, especially in 2009. The whole trend in baseball has shifted towards drafting and developing. The Reds have kept the pace under Jocketty. The 2011 offseason was ripe for trading a blocked 1st basemen and catcher.

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  4. #62
    Member tomnuetten's Avatar
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    Re: So Manny Parra has proven that you NEVER trade cheap starting pitching

    Quote Originally Posted by redsrule2500 View Post
    I think the idea is that a decent SP can easily make a good bullpen arm. Worst comes to worst, he's in the bullpen helping the team more than an injured Marshall.
    so if wood is injured next week it was a good deal again?!

  5. #63
    Churlish Johnny Footstool's Avatar
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    Re: So Manny Parra has proven that you NEVER trade cheap starting pitching

    Quote Originally Posted by UK Reds Fan View Post
    Not saying these would have to Cincy..but 2013 free agent signings:
    - Stephen Drew SS (1 year 9.5M)
    - Tori Hunter OF (2 year 26 M)

    There were a handful of other OF options, but SS and 3B were slim pickings of options.
    Stephen Drew was (and is) a bigger injury risk than Broxton. Torii Hunter would have been a great signing, but his age made him risky, too.
    "I prefer books and movies where the conflict isn't of the extreme cannibal apocalypse variety I guess." Redsfaithful

  6. #64
    Public Enemy #1 Tom Servo's Avatar
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    Re: So Manny Parra has proven that you NEVER trade cheap starting pitching

    Quote Originally Posted by redsrule2500 View Post
    Worst comes to worst, he's in the bullpen helping the team more than an injured Marshall.
    If GM's could predict every injury, they could quit baseball and just play the lottery professionally.
    "Since I've been with the Reds in 1989, we've never had a farm system this loaded," Bowden said. "If we were the New York Yankees and had unlimited dollars, we could have traded for Colon, (Jeff) Weaver, Rolen, (Cliff) Floyd, (Kenny) Rogers and Finley and gotten them all -- and still held onto our top five prospects. That's an amazing statement."

  7. #65
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    Re: So Manny Parra has proven that you NEVER trade cheap starting pitching

    Quote Originally Posted by mdccclxix View Post
    Jocketty's drafted players that were in the minors in 2007 and are now on the Cards:

    Allen Craig - 3 hitter
    Pete Kozma - SS
    Jon Jay - OF
    Daniel Descalso - UT
    Jamie Garcia

    Veterans acquired by Jocketty:
    Wainwright
    Molina
    Carpenter

    6 Years later that's a pretty decent amount of players still with the team and in important roles. They've continued drafting well, especially in 2009. The whole trend in baseball has shifted towards drafting and developing. The Reds have kept the pace under Jocketty. The 2011 offseason was ripe for trading a blocked 1st basemen and catcher.
    I think most of those guys were drafted by Lunhow as by then he took over scouting and development and Jocketty was cut off due to raping the farm system and not producing any players except Molina... in fact I think that's the only player the Cardinals produced under his watch that had any length of service.

    IIRC Jocketty wanted more payroll to buy talent like Jim Edmonds and keep free agents, whereas the Dewitts wanted homegrown cost controlled team.

    That being said... aside from the farm in shambles... 5 postseason appearances in years.... hard to argue with those results!

  8. #66
    Vavasor TRF's Avatar
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    Re: So Manny Parra has proven that you NEVER trade cheap starting pitching

    Wood is better than Leake. I'd have traded Leake for the same return and not even blinked once.

    LF has been an issue for Jocketty's entire tenure. At best he's applied a bandaid only.

    And yet the Reds have won the division twice in the last three years and are poised for their third trip to the playoffs in 4 years. The Reds need a new LF, which should be Choo. They would then need a go get it CF with good OB skills. by good i mean not horrible.
    Suck it up cupcake.

  9. #67
    Public Enemy #1 Tom Servo's Avatar
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    Re: So Manny Parra has proven that you NEVER trade cheap starting pitching

    Quote Originally Posted by TRF View Post
    Wood is better than Leake. I'd have traded Leake for the same return and not even blinked once.
    Wood's 2011 season was worse than any of Mike Leake's seasons, both in real life and in Baseball Reference's neutralized world.
    "Since I've been with the Reds in 1989, we've never had a farm system this loaded," Bowden said. "If we were the New York Yankees and had unlimited dollars, we could have traded for Colon, (Jeff) Weaver, Rolen, (Cliff) Floyd, (Kenny) Rogers and Finley and gotten them all -- and still held onto our top five prospects. That's an amazing statement."

  10. #68
    Waitin til next year bucksfan2's Avatar
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    Re: So Manny Parra has proven that you NEVER trade cheap starting pitching

    Quote Originally Posted by 5TimeWSChamps View Post
    Broxton and Marshall will be making $12.5 mil next year combined....

    And then $15.5 mil combined in 2015

    If you don't see the problems with this, then I don't know what to tell you
    This means nothing without context. How much is the payroll going to me? How much will they have to spend on other players? Will that much money committed to the pen hamper the signing of key players.

    Two years ago it was widely known on RZ that the Reds couldn't afford Joey Votto. Then after he signed a deal it was widely known that the Reds couldn't afford Brandon Phillips, but they signed him. It isn't my money nor do I know how much will be flowing in or out.

    Saying its a problem only means something if it actually prevents them from making the club better. Do you know what the payroll will be in 2014?

  11. #69
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    Re: So Manny Parra has proven that you NEVER trade cheap starting pitching

    Quote Originally Posted by 5TimeWSChamps View Post
    For specialized relief help.

    Absolutely absurd, giving up Travis Wood for Sean Marshall. You can ALWAYS find LOOGY's abound, and Parra has been unreal lately, for the cost of nothing.
    Wood wouldn't make this rotation. Injuries suck but it's not a reason a trade is bad.

  12. #70
    Vavasor TRF's Avatar
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    Re: So Manny Parra has proven that you NEVER trade cheap starting pitching

    Quote Originally Posted by Tom Servo View Post
    Wood's 2011 season was worse than any of Mike Leake's seasons, both in real life and in Baseball Reference's neutralized world.
    yep. one season. which almost never happens to any pitcher, you know, having a bad year. at age 24.

    I'd prefer the LH starter. It's a preference. Plus Wood doesn't seem to be affected by park the way Leake is.

    Leake's a year younger. no advantage there. His WHIP is higher, K rate lower and to be fair has a better walk rate. The stickler is, and I have been consistent in this, is Mike Leake is just way to hittable. his H/9 is high, especially compared to Wood. I prefer the guy that isn't getting pounded for 10+ hits per 9, which Leake has been in 2 of his four year. his BEST year was 8.5 H/9 a full hit more per 9 than Wood's WORST year.

    2011 was a bad year for Wood, and I guess it cost him a job in Cincinnati. Meanwhile I get to watch Leake give up 7-8 hits per game. He's having a good year, but there is a lot of luck in this year too. In fact, he's having an almost identical year to his 2011, but his ERA is almost a full run lower while striking out almost one fewer batter per 9 innings.

    magical.
    Suck it up cupcake.

  13. #71
    Churlish Johnny Footstool's Avatar
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    Re: So Manny Parra has proven that you NEVER trade cheap starting pitching

    The question is, barring injury, who would you rather have on the roster: Travis Wood and a replacement-level reliever, or Mike Leake and Sean Marshall?
    "I prefer books and movies where the conflict isn't of the extreme cannibal apocalypse variety I guess." Redsfaithful

  14. #72
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    Re: So Manny Parra has proven that you NEVER trade cheap starting pitching

    Like I have stated over and over again about the Leake vs. Wood thing....when Wood was traded Chapman was scheduled to be a part of the rotation and they had just traded for Latos. There was not room for either of them in the starting rotation. Leake had more options and could be stashed in the minors for 3 years (Wood had maybe 1 option left at most). That was probably a major deciding factor on who to deal.

  15. #73
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    Re: So Manny Parra has proven that you NEVER trade cheap starting pitching

    Quote Originally Posted by scott91575 View Post
    Like I have stated over and over again about the Leake vs. Wood thing....when Wood was traded Chapman was scheduled to be a part of the rotation and they had just traded for Latos. There was not room for either of them in the starting rotation. Leake had more options and could be stashed in the minors for 3 years (Wood had maybe 1 option left at most). That was probably a major deciding factor on who to deal.
    Maybe it's as simple as the Cubs wanting Wood.

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  17. #74
    Et tu, Brutus? Brutus's Avatar
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    Re: So Manny Parra has proven that you NEVER trade cheap starting pitching

    Quote Originally Posted by TRF View Post
    yep. one season. which almost never happens to any pitcher, you know, having a bad year. at age 24.

    I'd prefer the LH starter. It's a preference. Plus Wood doesn't seem to be affected by park the way Leake is.

    Leake's a year younger. no advantage there. His WHIP is higher, K rate lower and to be fair has a better walk rate. The stickler is, and I have been consistent in this, is Mike Leake is just way to hittable. his H/9 is high, especially compared to Wood. I prefer the guy that isn't getting pounded for 10+ hits per 9, which Leake has been in 2 of his four year. his BEST year was 8.5 H/9 a full hit more per 9 than Wood's WORST year.

    2011 was a bad year for Wood, and I guess it cost him a job in Cincinnati. Meanwhile I get to watch Leake give up 7-8 hits per game. He's having a good year, but there is a lot of luck in this year too. In fact, he's having an almost identical year to his 2011, but his ERA is almost a full run lower while striking out almost one fewer batter per 9 innings.

    magical.
    Wait, what?

    Did you really just cite age as a factor for Wood's bad 2011? You do realize that last season Mike Leake was also 24 years old during his "bad" season, right?

    Leake's career ERA is 3.94. Wood is 3.90. You seem to be imagining an advantage that does not exist.

    Oh, and Leake has almost 500 fewer professional innings pitched than Wood.
    "No matter how good you are, you're going to lose one-third of your games. No matter how bad you are you're going to win one-third of your games. It's the other third that makes the difference." ~Tommy Lasorda

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  19. #75
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    Re: So Manny Parra has proven that you NEVER trade cheap starting pitching

    Quote Originally Posted by HokieRed View Post
    Maybe it's as simple as the Cubs wanting Wood.
    You really think they would not have taken Leake if the Reds decided to deal him instead? We are talking about a reliever on the last year of his deal. In all honesty Wood was too much to give up, but he was expendable due to the starting rotation in place and his lack of options. This was all about what the Reds were willing to give up, not what the Cubs wanted (well, besides settling for absolute garbage).


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