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Thread: Pete Rose 4256

  1. #16
    Custodial Engineer Bob Sheed's Avatar
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    Re: Pete Rose 4256

    Quote Originally Posted by Ironman92 View Post

    He was terrible in 1986, but he didn't play a lot and most 45 year olds are.
    That's kind of my point. I just don't see someone playing 24 years in MLB anymore. And even if they did, they won't see the same number of ABs every year that Pete did.

    They'd have to:
    1. be a Griffey Jr. type player (starting young) and then some. Let's say they debut at age 20. Then play until they are 44.
    2. They'd have to bat leadoff or #2 all 24 years, regardless of speed.

    Who in their right mind is going to bat a slow 40 year old in the two hole? For 4 years.

    Most players start a steep decline in their mid-30s.

    I just don't see that record being broken.
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  3. #17
    Legen...dary reds44's Avatar
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    Re: Pete Rose 4256

    Quote Originally Posted by klw View Post
    Pete's OPS + in 85 was 99. He was league average and was 3/4 for OPS +/OPS out of the 6 qualifiers for the 85 Reds. He also had a OBP of .395 which would look great in the two hole back then and today. Now the 2 HR and .319 slugging percentage were kind of sad for a first baseman.

    http://www.baseball-reference.com/teams/CIN/1985.shtml

    In 85, perhaps the team would have been better served with Esasky at first and Davis or Redus getting more time in the OF but with a .395 OBP it is hard to argue Rose should not have gotten time.
    First of all, a .395 OBP at age 44 is absolutely amazing. I would have no problem batting anybody with a .395 OBP 2nd, I don't care what their BA/SLG is.

    With that being said, what were pitchers smoking? Why would you walk a guy with a .319 SLG% 86 times? He only struck out 35 times so obviously he had a great eye and ability to make contact, but dear lord throw the ball down the middle and make him hit a single.
    Quote Originally Posted by Norm Chortleton View Post
    The old Votto is back when he starts cussing himself out between pitches.

  4. #18
    Member klw's Avatar
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    Re: Pete Rose 4256

    Quote Originally Posted by New York Red View Post
    What evidence do you have that suggests every generation had them?
    “In every generation there is a chosen one. She alone will stand against the vampires the demons and the forces of darkness. She is the slayer.”

    Oh wait this isn't Buffyzone. Carry on.

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  6. #19
    breath westofyou's Avatar
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    Re: Pete Rose 4256

    Most ab's for guys 40 and over

    Code:
    AT BATS                         AB       AVG      OBA      SLG      OPS      OPS    
    1    Cap Anson                  2597     .317     .399     .404     .803     .053   
    2    Pete Rose                  2574     .272     .355     .327     .682    -.033   
    3    Carlton Fisk               1781     .266     .342     .438     .780     .063   
    4    Honus Wagner               1780     .269     .330     .362     .692     .030   
    5    Sam Rice                   1714     .321     .379     .421     .801     .023   
    T6   Luke Appling               1620     .301     .408     .381     .789     .043   
    T6   Omar Vizquel               1620     .250     .305     .310     .615    -.142   
    8    Jim O'Rourke               1554     .295     .347     .382     .729     .024   
    9    Carl Yastrzemski           1541     .266     .352     .416     .768     .046   
    10   Dave Winfield              1539     .268     .341     .446     .787     .045   
    11   Rickey Henderson           1488     .253     .381     .370     .751    -.034   
    12   Julio Franco               1434     .285     .358     .412     .770    -.003   
    13   Joe Start                  1247     .273     .327     .340     .667     .022   
    14   Darrell Evans              1212     .228     .347     .424     .771     .042   
    15   Deacon White               1191     .275     .350     .340     .690    -.004   
    16   Stan Musial                1142     .294     .375     .471     .846     .111   
    17   Rabbit Maranville          1116     .222     .280     .270     .549    -.179   
    18   Hank Aaron                 1076     .243     .331     .401     .732     .030   
    19   Craig Biggio               1065     .249     .296     .402     .698    -.084   
    20   Graig Nettles              1064     .230     .320     .380     .700    -.024   
    21   Paul Molitor               1040     .293     .343     .410     .753    -.018   
    22   Edgar Martinez              983     .279     .376     .437     .813     .046

  7. #20
    Member Ironman92's Avatar
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    Re: Pete Rose 4256

    Quote Originally Posted by westofyou View Post
    Most ab's for guys 40 and over

    Code:
    AT BATS                         AB       AVG      OBA      SLG      OPS      OPS    
    1    Cap Anson                  2597     .317     .399     .404     .803     .053   
    2    Pete Rose                  2574     .272     .355     .327     .682    -.033   
    3    Carlton Fisk               1781     .266     .342     .438     .780     .063   
    4    Honus Wagner               1780     .269     .330     .362     .692     .030   
    5    Sam Rice                   1714     .321     .379     .421     .801     .023   
    T6   Luke Appling               1620     .301     .408     .381     .789     .043   
    T6   Omar Vizquel               1620     .250     .305     .310     .615    -.142   
    8    Jim O'Rourke               1554     .295     .347     .382     .729     .024   
    9    Carl Yastrzemski           1541     .266     .352     .416     .768     .046   
    10   Dave Winfield              1539     .268     .341     .446     .787     .045   
    11   Rickey Henderson           1488     .253     .381     .370     .751    -.034   
    12   Julio Franco               1434     .285     .358     .412     .770    -.003   
    13   Joe Start                  1247     .273     .327     .340     .667     .022   
    14   Darrell Evans              1212     .228     .347     .424     .771     .042   
    15   Deacon White               1191     .275     .350     .340     .690    -.004   
    16   Stan Musial                1142     .294     .375     .471     .846     .111   
    17   Rabbit Maranville          1116     .222     .280     .270     .549    -.179   
    18   Hank Aaron                 1076     .243     .331     .401     .732     .030   
    19   Craig Biggio               1065     .249     .296     .402     .698    -.084   
    20   Graig Nettles              1064     .230     .320     .380     .700    -.024   
    21   Paul Molitor               1040     .293     .343     .410     .753    -.018   
    22   Edgar Martinez              983     .279     .376     .437     .813     .046
    I bet he had the most under 40

  8. #21
    breath westofyou's Avatar
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    Re: Pete Rose 4256

    Quote Originally Posted by Ironman92 View Post
    I bet he had the most under 40
    Code:
    AGE < 40
    
    HITS                             H     
    1    Ty Cobb                    3900   
    2    Pete Rose                  3557   
    3    Hank Aaron                 3509   
    4    Tris Speaker               3463   
    5    Derek Jeter                3304   
    6    Stan Musial                3294   
    7    Eddie Collins              3225   
    8    Robin Yount                3142   
    9    Eddie Murray               3071   
    10   Cal Ripken                 3070

  9. #22
    Big Red Machine RedsBaron's Avatar
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    Re: Pete Rose 4256

    Pete made his MLB debut at age 22 in 1963 and it wasn't as a part time player; he played in 157 games and had 696 plate appearances and 623 at bats his rookie year. That set a pattern. Pete played 162 or more games in a season 8 different times and for 12 straight seasons played at least 154 games, and the one season he appeared in "only" 154 games was 1972, when because of a work stoppage the Reds only played 154 games.
    Rose appeared in all 162 games in 1982 when he was 41 years old. In his career he had 14,053 at bats and 15,890 plate appearances, both major league records and in each case nearly 2000 at bats/appearances ahead of anyone else who ever played.
    Rose regularly racked up around 730+ plate appearances and 650+ at bats every season.
    Rose was incredibly durable and intensely competitive.
    Pete Rose was not the greatest hitter of all time; he isn't in the top 20. However, for another player to top his 4256 hits that player will have to start young, virtually never miss a game, and never, ever, take an at bat "off." If Rose went 4 for 4 in a game he wasn't satisfied--he wanted to go 5 for 5.
    I've long wondered if Rose's hyper-competitive nature didn't contribute to his personal failings, with the gambling being another form of competition when age finally caught up to him.
    "Hey...Dad. Wanna Have A Catch?" Kevin Costner in "Field Of Dreams."

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  11. #23
    Rally Onion! Chip R's Avatar
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    Re: Pete Rose 4256

    Quote Originally Posted by RedsBaron View Post
    I've long wondered if Rose's hyper-competitive nature didn't contribute to his personal failings, with the gambling being another form of competition when age finally caught up to him.
    Could be. Regardless, a shrink could have a field day with the psyche of Pete Rose.
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  12. #24
    Stat Wanker Hodiernus RedsManRick's Avatar
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    Re: Pete Rose 4256

    What's amazing to me is that he got paid to provide 6 full seasons of replacement level performance through his 40s. The underrated Pete Rose stat is this:

    Pete Rose got 15,861 plate appearances, the most ever. How many more? Well, Pete had 12% more PA than the #2 guy, Yaz. Only 7 players in MLB history had as many as 80% as many PA as he did. At 500 PA per year, Jeter is 8 seasons short of that many PA; alternately Derek Jeter is a Joey Votto career (to date) short of Pete Rose in terms of PA.

    It's funny how it worked out. Rose had a poor 1983 that probably should have ended his career -- well the Phillies at least wanted to downgrade him to a bench guy if he was brought back. Pete objected and was released. But regardless, he was at 3990 hits, so you knew he was going to be brought back by somebody to capitalize on that. It ended up being the Expos, where he was just good enough to hang on long enough for Reds management to decide that Pete needed to come home. They traded for him and named him player manager, where he managed him self another nearly 200 hits.

    Will we ever see another 4000 hit guy? I seriously doubt it. Firstly, I don't think teams will continue to employ a guy who is a no-power singles hitter. And you basically have to be that kind of a hitter to get that many hits. If you hit for power, you'll walk too much. I also think pitching has evolved to the point where there's just so many guys who miss bats that the extreme contact, good discipline, no power approach won't be as "easy" to pull off as it has been historically. Even Jeter, who is clearly a solid comp, strikes out twice as often as Pete did.

    But ultimately, you basically need a situation where a guy gets to keep playing because of reasons other than his skills. The entire idea of a guy being a player manager in charge of his own playing time while managing his peers is sort of mind-blowing to me and I seriously doubt we see that again any time soon. Though again, Jeter is about as close as you could get to a likely case.
    Games are won on run differential -- scoring more than your opponent. Runs are runs, scored or prevented they all count the same. Worry about scoring more and allowing fewer, not which positions contribute to which side of the equation or how "consistent" you are at your current level of performance.

  13. #25
    Moderator cumberlandreds's Avatar
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    Re: Pete Rose 4256

    If Ichiro Suzuki had played his entire career in the United States I think he would have a real chance at Pete's record. Suzuki through 2012 had 2606 hits in 12 MLB seasons. That's about 217 hits a season. He was 28 when he came to the USA to play. If he had been US born then its not to difficult to say he would have been in the big leagues at age 22. Assuming he would have averaged the 217 hits a year for those six "missing" years that would have put him at 3900 hits going into this season. You would think he would try to hang around long enough to break the hit record then. Of course assuming he would get 217 hits a season at younger age may be overestimating it a little. But still, I have thought that he could very well have broken the hit record if he had played MLB his full career.
    Reds Fan Since 1971

  14. #26
    Member Ironman92's Avatar
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    Re: Pete Rose 4256

    Quote Originally Posted by cumberlandreds View Post
    If Ichiro Suzuki had played his entire career in the United States I think he would have a real chance at Pete's record. Suzuki through 2012 had 2606 hits in 12 MLB seasons. That's about 217 hits a season. He was 28 when he came to the USA to play. If he had been US born then its not to difficult to say he would have been in the big leagues at age 22. Assuming he would have averaged the 217 hits a year for those six "missing" years that would have put him at 3900 hits going into this season. You would think he would try to hang around long enough to break the hit record then. Of course assuming he would get 217 hits a season at younger age may be overestimating it a little. But still, I have thought that he could very well have broken the hit record if he had played MLB his full career.
    I agree with most of this but he was 27 when he came over....had 242 hits before age 28

  15. #27
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    Re: Pete Rose 4256

    The impressive thing about Pete's record is all the seasons with a lot of hits. 10 seasons of 200+ hits, 6 seasons of 175+ at least. You'd have to play a long time and be a very consistent hitter, but you just don't see as many players getting 200 hit seasons like that anymore.

  16. #28
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    Re: Pete Rose 4256

    Quote Originally Posted by AmarilloRed View Post
    The impressive thing about Pete's record is all the seasons with a lot of hits. 10 seasons of 200+ hits, 6 seasons of 175+ at least. You'd have to play a long time and be a very consistent hitter, but you just don't see as many players getting 200 hit seasons like that anymore.
    K's and BB are making it harder, with all those hits you'll also see that the IF assist records come from the same eras. In short the game had more wood on the ball and thus more chances for hits and outs made in the field.

    Code:
    HITS >= 200
    
    
    T1   Pete Rose                10   
    T1   Ichiro Suzuki            10   
    3    Ty Cobb                   9   
    T4   Willie Keeler             8   
    T4   Lou Gehrig                8   
    T4   Derek Jeter               8   
    T4   Paul Waner                8   
    T8   Rogers Hornsby            7   
    T8   Charlie Gehringer         7   
    T8   Wade Boggs                7   
    T11  George Sisler             6   
    T11  Michael Young             6   
    T11  Stan Musial               6   
    T11  Al Simmons                6   
    T11  Bill Terry                6   
    T11  Jesse Burkett             6   
    T11  Steve Garvey              6   
    T11  Sam Rice                  6   
    T19  Tony Gwynn                5   
    T19  Chuck Klein               5   
    T19  Kirby Puckett             5

    Code:
    SEASON
    2B
    
    ASSISTS                       YEAR      A     
    1    Frankie Frisch           1927      641   
    2    Hughie Critz             1926      588   
    3    Rogers Hornsby           1927      582   
    4    Ski Melillo              1930      572   
    5    Ryne Sandberg            1983      571   
    6    Rabbit Maranville        1924      568   
    7    Frank Parkinson          1922      562   
    8    Aaron Hill               2007      560   
    9    Tony Cuccinello          1936      559   
    10   Johnny Hodapp            1930      557   
    
    SEASON
    3B
    
    ASSISTS                       YEAR      A     
    1    Graig Nettles            1971      412   
    T2   Brooks Robinson          1974      410   
    T2   Graig Nettles            1973      410   
    T4   Brooks Robinson          1967      405   
    T4   Harlond Clift            1937      405   
    6    Mike Schmidt             1974      404   
    7    Doug DeCinces            1982      399   
    8    Brandon Inge             2006      397   
    T9   Buddy Bell               1982      396   
    T9   Mike Schmidt             1977      396   
    T9   Clete Boyer              1962      396   
    
    
    SEASON
    3B
    
    ASSISTS                       YEAR      A     
    1    Graig Nettles            1971      412   
    T2   Brooks Robinson          1974      410   
    T2   Graig Nettles            1973      410   
    T4   Brooks Robinson          1967      405   
    T4   Harlond Clift            1937      405   
    6    Mike Schmidt             1974      404   
    7    Doug DeCinces            1982      399   
    8    Brandon Inge             2006      397   
    T9   Buddy Bell               1982      396   
    T9   Mike Schmidt             1977      396   
    T9   Clete Boyer              1962      396

  17. #29
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    Re: Pete Rose 4256

    Wonder how many hits he lost or gained because of scoring decisions.
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  18. #30
    Rally Onion! Chip R's Avatar
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    Re: Pete Rose 4256

    Quote Originally Posted by Fullboat View Post
    Wonder how many hits he lost or gained because of scoring decisions.
    It probably evened out in the end.
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