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Thread: A Little More From Joey V

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  1. #1
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    A Little More From Joey V

    If the Reds are going anywhere this year I think we need a little bit more from Votto. His defense this year has been lousy, he seems to make a lot more mental errors than he did in the past and although his BA and OBP are as solid as ever, the clutch hits seem to be few and far between. Here are his percentage of scoring baserunners compared to some other top players.
    Votto 38 runs knocked in- out of 301 baserunners (13%)
    In 2010 he was 77-391 20%
    M Cabrera 68-316 (22%)
    C Davis 62-277 (22%)
    Goldschmidt 67-290 (23%)
    Freeman 65-279 (23%)
    Encarnacion 60-290 (21%)
    McCutchen 49-279 (18%)
    A. Craig 76-306 (25%)
    Some Other Reds
    Phillips 73-358 (20%)
    Bruce 52-337 (15%)

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    *BaseClogger* (08-07-2013)

  3. #2
    Member Ironman92's Avatar
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    Re: A Little More From Joey V

    He's starting to attack some pitches to RF.....I really like that.

    His defense has been pretty bad.

    He had two good base running plays tonight.

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    coachpipe (08-07-2013)

  5. #3
    Member Ironman92's Avatar
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    Re: A Little More From Joey V

    Quote Originally Posted by mikemo14 View Post
    If the Reds are going anywhere this year I think we need a little bit more from Votto. His defense this year has been lousy, he seems to make a lot more mental errors than he did in the past and although his BA and OBP are as solid as ever, the clutch hits seem to be few and far between. Here are his percentage of scoring baserunners compared to some other top players.
    Votto 38 runs knocked in- out of 301 baserunners (13%)
    In 2010 he was 77-391 20%
    M Cabrera 68-316 (22%)
    C Davis 62-277 (22%)
    Goldschmidt 67-290 (23%)
    Freeman 65-279 (23%)
    Encarnacion 60-290 (21%)
    McCutchen 49-279 (18%)
    A. Craig 76-306 (25%)
    Some Other Reds
    Phillips 73-358 (20%)
    Bruce 52-337 (15%)
    Look at Phillips and Bruce's # of baserunners....1st and 2nd by a lot and I think you know one of the reasons.

  6. #4
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    Re: A Little More From Joey V

    Good point Ironman. Still compare him to Craig at this point and Votto is driving in half of the runs that Craig is.

  7. #5
    Member Ironman92's Avatar
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    Re: A Little More From Joey V

    Quote Originally Posted by mikemo14 View Post
    Good point Ironman. Still compare him to Craig at this point and Votto is driving in half of the runs that Craig is.
    I see both sides of it.

    When it comes down to it....I want Votto to try to knock them in.

  8. #6
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    Re: A Little More From Joey V

    I don't think Votto is the issue
    Melbourne to Cincinnati - September 1st - 12th 2013

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  10. #7
    Member Playadlc's Avatar
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    Re: A Little More From Joey V

    I think Votto's swing in the last week has looked as good as it has all season.
    DLC11@Insightbb.com

  11. #8
    It's showtime! RedEye's Avatar
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    Re: A Little More From Joey V

    I think you are wrong about this.

    As a hitter, Votto ranks #7 in MLB in OPS and #4 in wRC+. As a 1B, he is the #2 overall hitter behind Chris Davis, who is still riding that insane first half.

    On D, Votto is just around league average this year at #12, whereas last year he was top-5. So there is perhaps some room for improvement there, at least according to the current metrics.

    On the other hand, it seems a bit silly to ask a guy who is the #10 overall player in MLB for more. The only standards Votto may not be living up to are his own lofty ones from 2012 (before he got injured).
    Last edited by RedEye; 08-07-2013 at 12:36 AM.

  12. #9
    Stat Wanker Hodiernus RedsManRick's Avatar
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    Re: A Little More From Joey V

    You might not like the fact that Joey Votto doesn't get RBI, but saying he's not 'clutch' because he hasn't had the same crazy, unsustainable RISP performance as Brandon Phillips is completely inaccurate.

    You want to complain about the Reds offense, look at Zack Cozart, Devin Mesoraco and Todd Frazier. That's where the problem lies. Complain that Votto is only hitting .302/.458/.490 with RISP is pretty darn silly.

    The real problem is that people don't like their "run producers" walking with runners on base -- as if swing at pitches out of the zone that they would normally lay off would be a better approach.

    Code:
    Men on Base	PA	AVG	OBP	SLG	BB%	K%	wOBA	wRC+
    Joey Votto	224	.288	.442	.435	21%	20%	.374	137
    Shin-Soo Choo	158	.267	.449	.371	20%	20%	.372	136
    Brandon Phillip	250	.316	.378	.460	8%	12%	.356	125
    Jay Bruce	220	.289	.350	.459	10%	26%	.340	114
    Xavier Paul	101	.253	.356	.391	13%	23%	.325	104
    Todd Frazier	184	.234	.342	.364	11%	21%	.316	97
    Devin Mesoraco	121	.231	.306	.365	11%	17%	.282	74
    Zack Cozart	192	.192	.214	.305	3%	14%	.223	33
    								
    RISP		PA	AVG	OBP	SLG	BB%	K%	wOBA	wRC+
    Brandon Phillip	145	.376	.438	.530	10%	11%	.399	155
    Joey Votto	131	.302	.458	.490	23%	19%	.383	144
    Shin-Soo Choo	 94	.234	.462	.359	23%	20%	.372	136
    Xavier Paul	 66	.255	.379	.473	17%	18%	.360	128
    Todd Frazier	120	.263	.392	.400	15%	20%	.351	122
    Jay Bruce	147	.250	.333	.411	12%	30%	.309	93
    Devin Mesoraco	 74	.262	.338	.377	12%	16%	.291	80
    Zack Cozart	117	.173	.198	.265	4%	15%	.199	16
    Games are won on run differential -- scoring more than your opponent. Runs are runs, scored or prevented they all count the same. Worry about scoring more and allowing fewer, not which positions contribute to which side of the equation or how "consistent" you are at your current level of performance.

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  14. #10
    Member Wonderful Monds's Avatar
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    Re: A Little More From Joey V

    Quote Originally Posted by RedsManRick View Post
    You might not like the fact that Joey Votto doesn't get RBI, but saying he's not 'clutch' because he hasn't had the same crazy, unsustainable RISP performance as Brandon Phillips is completely inaccurate.

    You want to complain about the Reds offense, look at Zack Cozart, Devin Mesoraco and Todd Frazier. That's where the problem lies. Complain that Votto is only hitting .302/.458/.490 with RISP is pretty darn silly.

    The real problem is that people don't like their "run producers" walking with runners on base -- as if swing at pitches out of the zone that they would normally lay off would be a better approach.

    Code:
    Men on Base	PA	AVG	OBP	SLG	BB%	K%	wOBA	wRC+
    Joey Votto	224	.288	.442	.435	21%	20%	.374	137
    Shin-Soo Choo	158	.267	.449	.371	20%	20%	.372	136
    Brandon Phillip	250	.316	.378	.460	8%	12%	.356	125
    Jay Bruce	220	.289	.350	.459	10%	26%	.340	114
    Xavier Paul	101	.253	.356	.391	13%	23%	.325	104
    Todd Frazier	184	.234	.342	.364	11%	21%	.316	97
    Devin Mesoraco	121	.231	.306	.365	11%	17%	.282	74
    Zack Cozart	192	.192	.214	.305	3%	14%	.223	33
    								
    RISP		PA	AVG	OBP	SLG	BB%	K%	wOBA	wRC+
    Brandon Phillip	145	.376	.438	.530	10%	11%	.399	155
    Joey Votto	131	.302	.458	.490	23%	19%	.383	144
    Shin-Soo Choo	 94	.234	.462	.359	23%	20%	.372	136
    Xavier Paul	 66	.255	.379	.473	17%	18%	.360	128
    Todd Frazier	120	.263	.392	.400	15%	20%	.351	122
    Jay Bruce	147	.250	.333	.411	12%	30%	.309	93
    Devin Mesoraco	 74	.262	.338	.377	12%	16%	.291	80
    Zack Cozart	117	.173	.198	.265	4%	15%	.199	16
    I'm usually anti-all Votto criticism. But I think you're attacking a point not being made here.
    They don't think it be like it is, but it do.
    Quote Originally Posted by Larry Schuler View Post
    He has also taught me that even when the Reds win it is important to focus on the fact that they could have lost.

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  16. #11
    Stat Wanker Hodiernus RedsManRick's Avatar
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    Re: A Little More From Joey V

    Quote Originally Posted by Wonderful Monds View Post
    I'm usually anti-all Votto criticism. But I think you're attacking a point not being made here.
    I'm refuting a point that is very much being made -- that RBI conversion is a useful way for looking a player performance. Yes, Joey Votto could convert more of his RBI opportunities. But suggesting so presumes it's a useful lens.
    Last edited by RedsManRick; 08-07-2013 at 08:51 AM.
    Games are won on run differential -- scoring more than your opponent. Runs are runs, scored or prevented they all count the same. Worry about scoring more and allowing fewer, not which positions contribute to which side of the equation or how "consistent" you are at your current level of performance.

  17. #12
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    Re: A Little More From Joey V

    It's not Votto's fault that he is pitched around in RBI situations. Though that lofty OBA in those situations is one of the reasons why Phillips and Bruce are among the league leaders in RBI's.

    I don't care who drives in the runs, as long as they score. Wanting Votto's to expand the strike zone in a attempt to score more runs will likely have the opposite affect. Votto's strength is taking what pitchers give him. If that's a base on balls, so be it.

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    Re: A Little More From Joey V

    Quote Originally Posted by PuffyPig View Post
    It's not Votto's fault that he is pitched around in RBI situations. Though that lofty OBA in those situations is one of the reasons why Phillips and Bruce are among the league leaders in RBI's.

    I don't care who drives in the runs, as long as they score. Wanting Votto's to expand the strike zone in a attempt to score more runs will likely have the opposite affect. Votto's strength is taking what pitchers give him. If that's a base on balls, so be it.
    I think a big reason Votto isn't driving runs in is the people behind him. BP is having a flukishly good year driving people in but he's also making a boatload of outs with his OBP in the low .300s. And Bruce for all his success this year with extra base hits isn't doing real well with OBP either. You've got about .100 better chance of getting BP or Bruce out compared to Votto.

  19. #14
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    Re: A Little More From Joey V

    Agreed... vottos mental lapses on defense this season has me concerned. I wish he would be more ready to hit as well, like he used to. It seems he's more ready to take a pitch rather than hit one. I miss his aggressive first pitch swing if the ball is fat and hittable.

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  21. #15
    The Big Dog mth123's Avatar
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    Re: A Little More From Joey V

    Quote Originally Posted by UC_Ken View Post
    I think a big reason Votto isn't driving runs in is the people behind him. BP is having a flukishly good year driving people in but he's also making a boatload of outs with his OBP in the low .300s. And Bruce for all his success this year with extra base hits isn't doing real well with OBP either. You've got about .100 better chance of getting BP or Bruce out compared to Votto.
    I think there is some truth to this, but unless the Reds aquire Miguel Cabrera to hit behind Votto, I still think teams will target Votto as the guy they won't let beat them no matter who is hitting behind him. This is why I've come around to the idea that Votto should be hitting number 2. Teams are going to walk him and not let him be the RBI guy. He will be the league leader in OBP every year and without the out in front of him, he might be a 120 run Scored guy in the 2 hole. Votto is going to be the best choice to hit in any spot in the order, so the idea that he's the best choice for the 3 hole doesn't sway me that much.
    "All I can tell them is pick a good one and sock it." --BABE RUTH

    Having better players makes "the right time" or "the big hit" happen a lot more often. PLUS PLUS

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