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Thread: A Little More From Joey V

  1. #136
    RaisorZone Raisor's Avatar
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    Re: A Little More From Joey V

    Quote Originally Posted by New York Red View Post
    Excellent counter argument.

    You have completely dashed my point! Huzzah sir! Huzzah!
    "But I do know Joey's sister indirectly (or foster sister) and I have heard stories of Joey being into shopping, designer wear, fancy coffees, and pedicures."

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  3. #137
    Unsolicited Opinions traderumor's Avatar
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    Re: A Little More From Joey V

    Quote Originally Posted by Wonderful Monds View Post
    Again, this still glosses over the fact that Votto actually does convert fewer baserunners than average and is below his career average this year.

    Someone factored in the IBBs and showed it brought his 12% rate up to 13 and change. That's still a below average number, the average sits between 15-16%
    Nothing is "glossed over," it has been demonstrated why he should not be criticized or considered to be hurting the team because of a statistical measure that is flawed and he essentially has no control over (the timing of his successful plate appearances). His power numbers are a little bit off his career norms on the surface, but he certainly is not a reason the Reds offense is constipated once it hits 6-9 in the order.
    Can't win with 'em

    Can't win without 'em

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  5. #138
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    Re: A Little More From Joey V

    Quote Originally Posted by Wonderful Monds View Post
    Again, this still glosses over the fact that Votto actually does convert fewer baserunners than average and is below his career average this year.

    Someone factored in the IBBs and showed it brought his 12% rate up to 13 and change. That's still a below average number, the average sits between 15-16%
    Intentional walks are only part of the story. I am strongly of the opinion that you don't want Votto expanding his strike zone. While chasing balls out of the strike zone (or even swinging at tough strikes early in the count) may result in more RBIs for that individual player, it will also result in more outs. More outs means less opportunities for the players that follow.

    Pitchers may simply not be challenging Votto when runners are in scoring position. I am not going to fault him for making fewer outs.

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  7. #139
    Hey Cubs Fans RFS62's Avatar
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    Re: A Little More From Joey V

    I haven't read the entire thread, so maybe this thought has been considered.

    Players understand from years of conditioning what is expected of them in different places in the batting order. Regardless of any statistical analysis or sabr philosophy, they all have had it pounded into their heads throughout their playing life what their "role" is supposed to be.

    Dusty and his era of managers ascribe to this. The number two hitter is supposed to be able to put the bat on the ball and hit to the right side and move runners along. The middle of the order thumpers are supposed to be able to drive in runs, etc.

    The new age player now has had long enough to get all of the sabr arguments to the contrary. Some buy into the new thinking more than others, like Joey.

    But playing baseball is a job, and you had better do what you're told and try to do what's expected of you by your boss. In football, if your boss runs a T formation, and everyone on earth knows it's old thinking, you still have to do what your boss expects or find another job.

    The mindset of a player has much more to do with his performance than many here seem to think. Why do you think that some closers have the temperament to come in to those pressure situations when others don't? Expectations and the mindset that comes from being in that position.

    I think to some degree this is the same with the traditional RBI positions in the batting order. If your boss expects you to try to drive in runs, that will be in your mind and it will have an effect on what you do. To brush aside this very real part of the game ignores the mental side of performance, which may be the difference between many players of equal skill level.

    Tony Gwynn believed it was his job to put the bat on the ball. If he had changed his approach and tried to go deeper into the count, he no doubt might have drawn more walks. But he would have abandoned his "Tony Gwynn-ness", the thing that made him different, special in his own way.

    He was the sum total of his incredible hitting skills and his mental approach.

    These guys aren't robots. They are also the sum total of their hitting skills and their mental approach. The mental approach is influenced, to some degree or another, by the expectations of their managers and the years of conditioning to believe certain things about the way the game is supposed to be played.

    I really believe that people who played and had a tough mental discipline take more exception to the sabr thinking than those who didn't. And the stronger mental game you had as a player, the more it insults one to hear things that imply that you can't set your intention when you step up to the plate to hit a fly ball and drive in a run or put the ball on the ground to the right side. If you don't believe that it can be done, than it most certainly can't.... by YOU.

    But players with a strong mental game believe it can. On every level of baseball.
    Last edited by RFS62; 08-10-2013 at 09:13 AM.
    "Twenty years from now you will be more disappointed by the things that you didn't do than by the ones you did do. So throw off the bowlines. Sail away from safe harbor. Catch the trade winds in your sails. Explore. Dream. Discover."
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  9. #140
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    Re: A Little More From Joey V

    Joey knows exactly what his job is. And he does it better than 99.997% of all major leaguers.
    "But I do know Joey's sister indirectly (or foster sister) and I have heard stories of Joey being into shopping, designer wear, fancy coffees, and pedicures."

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    Re: A Little More From Joey V

    Quote Originally Posted by RFS62 View Post
    I haven't read the entire thread, so maybe this thought has been considered.

    Players understand from years of conditioning what is expected of them in different places in the batting order. Regardless of any statistical analysis or sabr philosophy, they all have had it pounded into their heads throughout their playing life what their "role" is supposed to be.

    Dusty and his era of managers ascribe to this. The number two hitter is supposed to be able to put the bat on the ball and hit to the right side and move runners along. The middle of the order thumpers are supposed to be able to drive in runs, etc.

    The new age player now has had long enough to get all of the sabr arguments to the contrary. Some buy into the new thinking more than others, like Joey.

    But playing baseball is a job, and you had better do what you're told and try to do what's expected of you by your boss. In football, if your boss runs a T formation, and everyone on earth knows it's old thinking, you still have to do what your boss expects or find another job.

    The mindset of a player has much more to do with his performance than many here seem to think. Why do you think that some closers have the temperament to come in to those pressure situations when others don't? Expectations and the mindset that comes from being in that position.

    I think to some degree this is the same with the traditional RBI positions in the batting order. If your boss expects you to try to drive in runs, that will be in your mind and it will have an effect on what you do. To brush aside this very real part of the game ignores the mental side of performance, which may be the difference between many players of equal skill level.

    Tony Gwynn believed it was his job to put the bat on the ball. If he had changed his approach and tried to go deeper into the count, he no doubt might have drawn more walks. But he would have abandoned his "Tony Gwynn-ness", the thing that made him different, special in his own way.

    He was the sum total of his incredible hitting skills and his mental approach.

    These guys aren't robots. They are also the sum total of their hitting skills and their mental approach. The mental approach is influenced, to some degree or another, by the expectations of their managers and the years of conditioning to believe certain things about the way the game is supposed to be played.

    I really believe that people who played and had a tough mental discipline take more exception to the sabr thinking than those who didn't. And the stronger mental game you had as a player, the more it insults one to hear things that imply that you can't set your intention when you step up to the plate to hit a fly ball and drive in a run or put the ball on the ground to the right side. If you don't believe that it can be done, than it most certainly can't.... by YOU.

    But players with a strong mental game believe it can. On every level of baseball.
    Funny, I never thought of Ted Williams as a new age ballplayer. I always just thought of him as a cerebral one.

  11. #142
    Hey Cubs Fans RFS62's Avatar
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    Re: A Little More From Joey V

    Quote Originally Posted by puca View Post
    Funny, I never thought of Ted Williams as a new age ballplayer. I always just thought of him as a cerebral one.

    It appears I didn't make my point well enough. It doesn't matter what he thought, new age or old age. It's the fact that he thought "something" and he set his attention to do that "something" in his linear thinking before he moved into the "in the moment" or "the zone".

    You are more likely to get what you set your intention towards, good, bad or indifferent.

    If you play golf, what are you more likely to get when your last thought before you step up to the ball is "I hope I don't hit it in the water"?
    "Twenty years from now you will be more disappointed by the things that you didn't do than by the ones you did do. So throw off the bowlines. Sail away from safe harbor. Catch the trade winds in your sails. Explore. Dream. Discover."
    ~ Mark Twain

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  13. #143
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    Re: A Little More From Joey V

    Quote Originally Posted by Raisor View Post
    Joey knows exactly what his job is. And he does it better than 99.997% of all major leaguers.

    Joey most certainly does what you describe as his job in exactly the way you just expressed. Nobody is arguing against that.

    Is he doing what his boss thinks his job is? I don't know.
    "Twenty years from now you will be more disappointed by the things that you didn't do than by the ones you did do. So throw off the bowlines. Sail away from safe harbor. Catch the trade winds in your sails. Explore. Dream. Discover."
    ~ Mark Twain

  14. #144
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    Re: A Little More From Joey V

    Quote Originally Posted by RFS62 View Post
    Joey most certainly does what you describe as his job in exactly the way you just expressed. Nobody is arguing against that.

    Is he doing what his boss thinks his job is? I don't know.
    I hope he is. If he isn't I would rather his boss change than Joey change.

    Good bosses know not to try to make someone into something they aren't.
    "But I do know Joey's sister indirectly (or foster sister) and I have heard stories of Joey being into shopping, designer wear, fancy coffees, and pedicures."

  15. #145
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    Re: A Little More From Joey V

    Quote Originally Posted by RFS62 View Post
    Joey most certainly does what you describe as his job in exactly the way you just expressed. Nobody is arguing against that.

    Is he doing what his boss thinks his job is? I don't know.
    His boss keeps penciling him in at the same spot. So he's meeting expectations well enough.

  16. #146
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    Re: A Little More From Joey V

    Quote Originally Posted by RFS62 View Post
    It appears I didn't make my point well enough. It doesn't matter what he thought, new age or old age. It's the fact that he thought "something" and he set his attention to do that "something" in his linear thinking before he moved into the "in the moment" or "the zone".

    You are more likely to get what you set your intention towards, good, bad or indifferent.

    If you play golf, what are you more likely to get when your last thought before you step up to the ball is "I hope I don't hit it in the water"?
    But even if you go up to the plate looking for a pitch to drive, the pitcher also has to give you one. Much different than golf.

    A better analogy would be a defensive back setting his mind on making an interception. Maybe he guess right and jumps the route and picks one off, maybe he falls for a double move and gives up a touchdown.

    I'm fairly certain that Joey goes to bat with every intention of driving the ball. He knows what type of pitch he is looking for a waits on it. The fact that he doesn't change his approach may result in fewer RBIs for him but it results in many more RBI opportunities for Brandon and Jay. I'm sorry if I fail to see the downside of that approach.
    Last edited by puca; 08-10-2013 at 09:52 AM.

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  18. #147
    Matt's Dad RANDY IN INDY's Avatar
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    Re: A Little More From Joey V

    Quote Originally Posted by RFS62 View Post
    I haven't read the entire thread, so maybe this thought has been considered.

    Players understand from years of conditioning what is expected of them in different places in the batting order. Regardless of any statistical analysis or sabr philosophy, they all have had it pounded into their heads throughout their playing life what their "role" is supposed to be.

    Dusty and his era of managers ascribe to this. The number two hitter is supposed to be able to put the bat on the ball and hit to the right side and move runners along. The middle of the order thumpers are supposed to be able to drive in runs, etc.

    The new age player now has had long enough to get all of the sabr arguments to the contrary. Some buy into the new thinking more than others, like Joey.

    But playing baseball is a job, and you had better do what you're told and try to do what's expected of you by your boss. In football, if your boss runs a T formation, and everyone on earth knows it's old thinking, you still have to do what your boss expects or find another job.

    The mindset of a player has much more to do with his performance than many here seem to think. Why do you think that some closers have the temperament to come in to those pressure situations when others don't? Expectations and the mindset that comes from being in that position.

    I think to some degree this is the same with the traditional RBI positions in the batting order. If your boss expects you to try to drive in runs, that will be in your mind and it will have an effect on what you do. To brush aside this very real part of the game ignores the mental side of performance, which may be the difference between many players of equal skill level.

    Tony Gwynn believed it was his job to put the bat on the ball. If he had changed his approach and tried to go deeper into the count, he no doubt might have drawn more walks. But he would have abandoned his "Tony Gwynn-ness", the thing that made him different, special in his own way.

    He was the sum total of his incredible hitting skills and his mental approach.

    These guys aren't robots. They are also the sum total of their hitting skills and their mental approach. The mental approach is influenced, to some degree or another, by the expectations of their managers and the years of conditioning to believe certain things about the way the game is supposed to be played.

    I really believe that people who played and had a tough mental discipline take more exception to the sabr thinking than those who didn't. And the stronger mental game you had as a player, the more it insults one to hear things that imply that you can't set your intention when you step up to the plate to hit a fly ball and drive in a run or put the ball on the ground to the right side. If you don't believe that it can be done, than it most certainly can't.... by YOU.

    But players with a strong mental game believe it can. On every level of baseball.
    Talent is God Given: be humble.
    Fame is man given: be thankful.
    Conceit is self given: be careful.

    John Wooden

  19. #148
    Hey Cubs Fans RFS62's Avatar
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    Re: A Little More From Joey V

    Quote Originally Posted by Raisor View Post
    I hope he is. If he isn't I would rather his boss change than Joey change.

    Good bosses know not to try to make someone into something they aren't.
    Quote Originally Posted by reds1869 View Post
    His boss keeps penciling him in at the same spot. So he's meeting expectations well enough.

    His boss isn't going to change. He's running an offense which many don't like. He has expectations which many view as arcane. His lineup construction is designed, in his mind, to fit that system.

    Is it possible that if each individual piece of that system gets to decide for themselves what their approach should be, it will be less effective as a whole than the sum of the parts executing or attempting to execute in the system as it's constructed?

    I don't know. But that's what running an offense is in football, you don't get to decide if your coach is right or not. You get to do what you're told to do.

    How much this translates to baseball, I also don't know.

    I'm just throwing out some thoughts and introducing the idea that the mind of a competitor is a very important piece of the puzzle which seems to be ignored around her a lot.

    Sports psychology isn't voodoo. It's real. The science of performance as it applies to the mind and mental approach is a bold new frontier in all sports.

    But even before it was ever considered a science, competitors throughout the ages instinctively all knew that some competitors had more of a mental edge than others. That's why you get guys who had a strong mental approach getting upset when they're told there's no such thing as clutch, that you can't change your approach, that it has no bearing.

    Some players want to be the guy at the plate with the game on the line. Some players want the ball to be hit to them, for it to be a tough chance, to have an opportunity to do something special.
    "Twenty years from now you will be more disappointed by the things that you didn't do than by the ones you did do. So throw off the bowlines. Sail away from safe harbor. Catch the trade winds in your sails. Explore. Dream. Discover."
    ~ Mark Twain

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  21. #149
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    Re: A Little More From Joey V

    Quote Originally Posted by RFS62 View Post
    His boss isn't going to change. He's running an offense which many don't like. He has expectations which many view as arcane. His lineup construction is designed, in his mind, to fit that system.

    Is it possible that if each individual piece of that system gets to decide for themselves what their approach should be, it will be less effective as a whole than the sum of the parts executing or attempting to execute in the system as it's constructed?

    I don't know. But that's what running an offense is in football, you don't get to decide if your coach is right or not. You get to do what you're told to do.

    How much this translates to baseball, I also don't know.

    I'm just throwing out some thoughts and introducing the idea that the mind of a competitor is a very important piece of the puzzle which seems to be ignored around her a lot.

    Sports psychology isn't voodoo. It's real. The science of performance as it applies to the mind and mental approach is a bold new frontier in all sports.

    But even before it was ever considered a science, competitors throughout the ages instinctively all knew that some competitors had more of a mental edge than others. That's why you get guys who had a strong mental approach getting upset when they're told there's no such thing as clutch, that you can't change your approach, that it has no bearing.

    Some players want to be the guy at the plate with the game on the line. Some players want the ball to be hit to them, for it to be a tough chance, to have an opportunity to do something special.
    And this relates to Votto how? Are you implying that he lacks that mental edge?

    This year is a departure from the norm for Votto. His career numbers are better with runners in scoring position than with no runners on. Are you claiming that he has lost his mental edge? Again I ask isn't it more likely a random fluctuation or possibly an indication that pitchers are less willing to give Votto anything good to hit in those situations than a sudden loss in 'clutchiness'.

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    Re: A Little More From Joey V

    Looking at it another way. Thank goodness Votto is getting on base because Brandon's OPS with the bases empty is .577.


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