Turn Off Ads?
Page 13 of 16 FirstFirst ... 3910111213141516 LastLast
Results 181 to 195 of 235

Thread: A Little More From Joey V

  1. #181
    Member Billy Hamilton's Legs's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2010
    Location
    Saint Louis
    Posts
    210

    Re: A Little More From Joey V

    Quote Originally Posted by OesterPoster View Post
    I can't believe I just read that Doc drivel. And I'm not even talking about the Votto rip piece. I'm talking about his horrible analysis of the Breaking Bad premiere.
    I want to go on a rant about his misinterpretation of everything in that episode, but I have to remember this a baseball forum. "Disappointed" in the premiere? Who is this guy?
    Just call me Legs

  2. Turn Off Ads?
  3. #182
    Stat Wanker Hodiernus RedsManRick's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2004
    Location
    Guelph, ON
    Posts
    16,039

    Re: A Little More From Joey V

    Quote Originally Posted by Always Red View Post
    Paul Daugherty weighs in on "worthless RBI" and takes another shot at Votto:



    http://cincinnati.com/blogs/daughert...ow-mean-a-win/

    I'm not surprised to hear this from Brennaman or Daugherty, has anyone else here heard Baker or Jocketty saying Votto should be driving in more runs? Because that's what I think the man said here.
    I could not help from feeding the troll. What I posted in the comments:

    The problem with the RBI focus is two-fold:
    1) Let's take a guy with a lot of RBI. Just looking at his RBI, we don't know whether he has hit well with RISP, come up often with RISP, or both.

    2) On the flip side, let's take a guy with a lack of RBI. Just looking at his RBI, we don't know whether he has hit poorly with RISP, walked a lot due to being pitched around, or simply not had a lot of RBI opportunities.

    If people want to celebrate Phillips RBI conversion rate this year, I'm right with you. DatDude has been extremely clutch this year. Good on him. But just looking at RBI doesn't tell me that.

    And similarly if people want to critique Votto for his lack of RBI, they better be doing so fully aware that what's driving his low RBI count is primarily the fact that he's taking a lot of walks, creating even more opportunities for the guys behind him while avoiding the outs that usually come with swinging at pitches out of the zone.

    So if look at RBI doesn't tell me anything definitively about the guy, if I'm going to have to look at other stats to make sure I'm not misplacing my celebration or frustration, then why not just skip the step of look at RBI in the first place?

    If people like Daugherty were showing this kind of understanding in nuance when discussing RBI, sabermetricians wouldn't get worked up. But they don't. They treat RBI as a self-evident and very valuable measure of performance with little, if any, consideration of the factors laid out above.

    I'm glad that you like numbers Paul. And you are entitled to like whichever numbers you want. But you shouldn't be surprised if people who know a whole lot more about numbers than you do critique your over-reliance on numbers that aren't terribly informative in the whole scheme of things.
    Games are won on run differential -- scoring more than your opponent. Runs are runs, scored or prevented they all count the same. Worry about scoring more and allowing fewer, not which positions contribute to which side of the equation or how "consistent" you are at your current level of performance.

  4. Likes:

    *BaseClogger* (08-14-2013), Always Red (08-13-2013), Fil3232 (08-13-2013), Hoosier Red (08-13-2013), Larkin Fan (08-13-2013), Raisor (08-14-2013), Tom Servo (08-13-2013)

  5. #183
    Member
    Join Date
    Apr 2001
    Location
    Indianapolis, IN
    Posts
    7,196

    Re: A Little More From Joey V

    Since we're doing show and tell, this is what i posted on the page.

    You're not stupid Doc.
    However, the argument on importance of getting on base vs RBI is stupid. You somehow fail to mention that in the course of getting his RBI, Brandon Phillips did two very important things that generally lead to runs. 1)He didn't make an out. 2) He collected four bases on his own so that he not only drove in any runner on base, he didn't need anyone else to drive him in.

    The end product (runs) are of course the only the thing that matters in the end. But runs are like cars coming off an assembly line. It wouldn't make sense to only credit the guy at the end of the assembly line for building the car would it?

    I'm constantly amazed at an argument against stats somehow defends RBI. What are RBI if not a number?
    Apologies to whichever brilliant poster I stole the assembly line analogy from. While it came to me this morning, I don't believe I'm creative enough to think of the analogy myself.
    When people say that I donít know what Iím talking about when it comes to sports or writing, I think: Man, you should see me in the rest of my life.
    ---Joe Posnanski

  6. Likes:

    *BaseClogger* (08-14-2013), Always Red (08-13-2013), Larkin Fan (08-13-2013), mth123 (08-13-2013)

  7. #184
    nothing more than a fan Always Red's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2006
    Location
    Cincy West
    Posts
    5,062

    Re: A Little More From Joey V

    What sadly gets lost in this for many fans (that Daugherty and his ilk hold sway over), is that they think it's Votto OR Phillips.

    It's not that at all, in fact that's the furthest thing from the truth.

    For the Reds, the winning combination is Votto AND Phillips.

  8. Likes:

    *BaseClogger* (08-14-2013), Fil3232 (08-13-2013), Hoosier Red (08-13-2013), Larkin Fan (08-13-2013), LexRedsFan (08-14-2013), RedsBaron (08-14-2013)

  9. #185
    Member
    Join Date
    Mar 2013
    Location
    Cartwright, OK
    Posts
    140

    Re: A Little More From Joey V

    Quote Originally Posted by Always Red View Post
    What sadly gets lost in this for many fans (that Daugherty and his ilk hold sway over), is that they think it's Votto OR Phillips.

    It's not that at all, in fact that's the furthest thing from the truth.

    For the Reds, the winning combination is Votto AND Phillips.
    I agree, I hate that it seems like everytime we have a thread about this people seem to like either Votto or Phillips. We should like them both.

  10. Likes:

    RedsBaron (08-14-2013)

  11. #186
    Et tu, Brutus? Brutus's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2006
    Location
    Atlanta, Ga.
    Posts
    10,570

    Re: A Little More From Joey V

    Here's the post I left on Doc's page:



    "No matter how good you are, you're going to lose one-third of your games. No matter how bad you are you're going to win one-third of your games. It's the other third that makes the difference." ~Tommy Lasorda

  12. Likes:

    *BaseClogger* (08-14-2013), Always Red (08-14-2013), mdccclxix (08-14-2013), OGB (08-14-2013), westofyou (08-14-2013)

  13. #187
    Moderator LexRedsFan's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2010
    Location
    Greenville, South Carolina
    Posts
    558

    Re: A Little More From Joey V

    Quote Originally Posted by Brutus View Post
    Here's the post I left on Doc's page:


    The best kind of comment for a situation/story like that.

  14. Likes:

    Brutus (08-14-2013), mdccclxix (08-14-2013)

  15. #188
    breath westofyou's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2000
    Location
    PDX
    Posts
    42,894

    Re: A Little More From Joey V

    Quote Originally Posted by Always Red View Post
    What sadly gets lost in this for many fans (that Daugherty and his ilk hold sway over), is that they think it's Votto OR Phillips.

    It's not that at all, in fact that's the furthest thing from the truth.

    For the Reds, the winning combination is Votto AND Phillips.
    Deron Johnson or Frank Robinson

    Make your choice

  16. #189
    Member harangatang's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2005
    Posts
    1,551

    Re: A Little More From Joey V

    Quote Originally Posted by westofyou View Post
    Deron Johnson or Frank Robinson

    Make your choice
    Regardless of the other choice given, the answer is always Frank Robinson when it comes to the Reds.

  17. #190
    Member 11larkin11's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2006
    Location
    Bellefontaine,OH
    Posts
    2,332

    Re: A Little More From Joey V

    Quote Originally Posted by harangatang View Post
    Regardless of the other choice given, the answer is always Frank Robinson when it comes to the Reds.
    Better catcher, Robinson or Bench?

    Domo Arigato, Here Comes Joey Votto

    ---TRF

    "I do what I want to do and say what I want to say."

    --Bronson Arroyo

  18. #191
    Big Red Machine RedsBaron's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2000
    Location
    Out Wayne
    Posts
    22,851

    Re: A Little More From Joey V

    Daugherty asserted in his diatribe that Dusty Baker, Walt Jocketty and Marty Brennaman agreed with his criticism of Joey Votto, but he produced no evidence that Dusty or Walt did in fact agree with him. As for Marty, he referred to him as a "HOFer," but Brennaman is not a member of the Baseball Hall of Fame. He is an award winner, the winner of the Ford C. Frick award, not an "inductee" into the HOF.
    More importantly, Brennaman is not an award winner or HOF member or anything else when it comes to hitting. If Julius Erving or Paul Hornung or Richard Petty is critical of how Votto hits, fine you can cite them as being a HOFer, and they are, but they are not members of the Baseball Hall of Fame.
    "Hey...Dad. Wanna Have A Catch?" Kevin Costner in "Field Of Dreams."

  19. Likes:

    mth123 (08-14-2013)

  20. #192
    Big Red Machine RedsBaron's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2000
    Location
    Out Wayne
    Posts
    22,851

    Re: A Little More From Joey V

    Quote Originally Posted by Always Red View Post
    What sadly gets lost in this for many fans (that Daugherty and his ilk hold sway over), is that they think it's Votto OR Phillips.

    It's not that at all, in fact that's the furthest thing from the truth.

    For the Reds, the winning combination is Votto AND Phillips.
    Amen. The Reds need them both.
    Votto isn't perfect. At least twice this week I have seen him take a 3-2 pitch and be called out on strikes, and each time replays showed the umpire's call was correct. I was mumbling to myself that Joey needed to be more aggressive. I do not want Votto to "expand the strike zone" and swing at pitches that are not strikes, but sometimes he does appear to my uneducated eye to be too selective.
    He's still the best player and run producer on the Reds.
    Phillips is not the best player and run producer on the Reds but he is still quite valuable and an asset. I am glad the Reds have them both. The Reds offensive woes this season come primarily from the guys who have played shortstop, third base and left field.
    "Hey...Dad. Wanna Have A Catch?" Kevin Costner in "Field Of Dreams."

  21. Likes:

    RANDY IN INDY (08-14-2013)

  22. #193
    Member
    Join Date
    Apr 2001
    Location
    Indianapolis, IN
    Posts
    7,196

    Re: A Little More From Joey V

    Quote Originally Posted by RedsBaron View Post
    Amen. The Reds need them both.
    Votto isn't perfect. At least twice this week I have seen him take a 3-2 pitch and be called out on strikes, and each time replays showed the umpire's call was correct. I was mumbling to myself that Joey needed to be more aggressive. I do not want Votto to "expand the strike zone" and swing at pitches that are not strikes, but sometimes he does appear to my uneducated eye to be too selective.
    A couple of points; 1)I don't think anyone would argue Votto's perfect. 2) What you're talking about isn't being more aggressive, but rather to improve his pitch recognition(which is almost superhuman to begin with.)

    I think you and he are of the same mindset in terms of "don't swing at balls, but swing at all pitches you believe will be strikes." (At least with 2 strikes he does this.)

    On the examples you mentioned, I assume he didn't swing because he thought the pitches would be out of the strikezone. Of course sometimes he's wrong. A pitch he believes will be a ball is actually a strike.

    If the default becomes; no matter what, don't strike out looking. He'll have to swing at a lot of pitches that actually would be called balls, because in order to protect the plate on the "relatively" few ones he thinks will be balls, but instead are strikes, he'll also have to swing at a lot of ones he believes are balls, but has to swing at so he doesn't strike out looking.

    It's probably best to think of this in terms of probability. If he's 100% sure the pitch is out of the strikezone, he should never swing. If he's 100% sure the pitch will be in the strikezone, he should definitely swing. The trick is at what probability do you make the decision to swing or not swing.
    When people say that I donít know what Iím talking about when it comes to sports or writing, I think: Man, you should see me in the rest of my life.
    ---Joe Posnanski

  23. #194
    Member Tom Servo's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2006
    Posts
    7,544

    Re: A Little More From Joey V

    Dusty has probably said something before about Votto's RBI #, but I don't think he is dissatisfied with Votto's performance this year. I very much doubt Jocketty cares an iota about RBI totals.
    "Since I've been with the Reds in 1989, we've never had a farm system this loaded," Bowden said. "If we were the New York Yankees and had unlimited dollars, we could have traded for Colon, (Jeff) Weaver, Rolen, (Cliff) Floyd, (Kenny) Rogers and Finley and gotten them all -- and still held onto our top five prospects. That's an amazing statement."

  24. #195
    Ripsnort wheels's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2002
    Location
    Columbus, Ohio
    Posts
    7,595

    Re: A Little More From Joey V

    Quote Originally Posted by RedsBaron View Post
    Amen. The Reds need them both.
    Votto isn't perfect. At least twice this week I have seen him take a 3-2 pitch and be called out on strikes, and each time replays showed the umpire's call was correct. I was mumbling to myself that Joey needed to be more aggressive. I do not want Votto to "expand the strike zone" and swing at pitches that are not strikes, but sometimes he does appear to my uneducated eye to be too selective.
    He's still the best player and run producer on the Reds.
    Phillips is not the best player and run producer on the Reds but he is still quite valuable and an asset. I am glad the Reds have them both. The Reds offensive woes this season come primarily from the guys who have played shortstop, third base and left field.
    I agree, and the notion that Votto can actually improve should be frightening to pitchers.
    "We know we're better than this, but we can't prove it." - Tony Gwynn


Turn Off Ads?

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •  

Board Moderators may, at their discretion and judgment, delete and/or edit any messages that violate any of the following guidelines: 1. Explicit references to alleged illegal or unlawful acts. 2. Graphic sexual descriptions. 3. Racial or ethnic slurs. 4. Use of edgy language (including masked profanity). 5. Direct personal attacks, flames, fights, trolling, baiting, name-calling, general nuisance, excessive player criticism or anything along those lines. 6. Posting spam. 7. Each person may have only one user account. It is fine to be critical here - that's what this board is for. But let's not beat a subject or a player to death, please.

Thank you, and most importantly, enjoy yourselves!


RedsZone.com is a privately owned website and is not affiliated with the Cincinnati Reds or Major League Baseball


Contact us: Boss | GIK | BCubb2003 | dabvu2498 | Gallen5862 | LexRedsFan | Plus Plus | RedlegJake | redsfan1995 | The Operator | Tommyjohn25