A Little More From Joey V

[Billy Hamilton's Legs]

I can't believe I just read that Doc drivel. And I'm not even talking about the Votto rip piece. I'm talking about his horrible analysis of the Breaking Bad premiere.

I want to go on a rant about his misinterpretation of everything in that episode, but I have to remember this a baseball forum. "Disappointed" in the premiere? Who is this guy?

[RedsManRick]

Paul Daugherty weighs in on "worthless RBI" and takes another shot at Votto:



http://cincinnati.com/blogs/daughert...ow-mean-a-win/

I'm not surprised to hear this from Brennaman or Daugherty, has anyone else here heard Baker or Jocketty saying Votto should be driving in more runs? Because that's what I think the man said here.

I could not help from feeding the troll. What I posted in the comments:

The problem with the RBI focus is two-fold:
1) Let's take a guy with a lot of RBI. Just looking at his RBI, we don't know whether he has hit well with RISP, come up often with RISP, or both.

2) On the flip side, let's take a guy with a lack of RBI. Just looking at his RBI, we don't know whether he has hit poorly with RISP, walked a lot due to being pitched around, or simply not had a lot of RBI opportunities.

If people want to celebrate Phillips RBI conversion rate this year, I'm right with you. DatDude has been extremely clutch this year. Good on him. But just looking at RBI doesn't tell me that.

And similarly if people want to critique Votto for his lack of RBI, they better be doing so fully aware that what's driving his low RBI count is primarily the fact that he's taking a lot of walks, creating even more opportunities for the guys behind him while avoiding the outs that usually come with swinging at pitches out of the zone.

So if look at RBI doesn't tell me anything definitively about the guy, if I'm going to have to look at other stats to make sure I'm not misplacing my celebration or frustration, then why not just skip the step of look at RBI in the first place?

If people like Daugherty were showing this kind of understanding in nuance when discussing RBI, sabermetricians wouldn't get worked up. But they don't. They treat RBI as a self-evident and very valuable measure of performance with little, if any, consideration of the factors laid out above.

I'm glad that you like numbers Paul. And you are entitled to like whichever numbers you want. But you shouldn't be surprised if people who know a whole lot more about numbers than you do critique your over-reliance on numbers that aren't terribly informative in the whole scheme of things.

[Hoosier Red]

Since we're doing show and tell, this is what i posted on the page.

You're not stupid Doc.
However, the argument on importance of getting on base vs RBI is stupid. You somehow fail to mention that in the course of getting his RBI, Brandon Phillips did two very important things that generally lead to runs. 1)He didn't make an out. 2) He collected four bases on his own so that he not only drove in any runner on base, he didn't need anyone else to drive him in.

The end product (runs) are of course the only the thing that matters in the end. But runs are like cars coming off an assembly line. It wouldn't make sense to only credit the guy at the end of the assembly line for building the car would it?

I'm constantly amazed at an argument against stats somehow defends RBI. What are RBI if not a number?

Apologies to whichever brilliant poster I stole the assembly line analogy from. While it came to me this morning, I don't believe I'm creative enough to think of the analogy myself.

[Always Red]

What sadly gets lost in this for many fans (that Daugherty and his ilk hold sway over), is that they think it's Votto OR Phillips.

It's not that at all, in fact that's the furthest thing from the truth.

For the Reds, the winning combination is Votto AND Phillips.

[KC2135]

What sadly gets lost in this for many fans (that Daugherty and his ilk hold sway over), is that they think it's Votto OR Phillips.

It's not that at all, in fact that's the furthest thing from the truth.

For the Reds, the winning combination is Votto AND Phillips.

I agree, I hate that it seems like everytime we have a thread about this people seem to like either Votto or Phillips. We should like them both.

[Brutus]

Here's the post I left on Doc's page:

[LexRedsFan]

Here's the post I left on Doc's page:

The best kind of comment for a situation/story like that.

[westofyou]

What sadly gets lost in this for many fans (that Daugherty and his ilk hold sway over), is that they think it's Votto OR Phillips.

It's not that at all, in fact that's the furthest thing from the truth.

For the Reds, the winning combination is Votto AND Phillips.

Deron Johnson or Frank Robinson

Make your choice

[harangatang]

Deron Johnson or Frank Robinson

Make your choice

Regardless of the other choice given, the answer is always Frank Robinson when it comes to the Reds.

[11larkin11]

Regardless of the other choice given, the answer is always Frank Robinson when it comes to the Reds.

Better catcher, Robinson or Bench?

[RedsBaron]

Daugherty asserted in his diatribe that Dusty Baker, Walt Jocketty and Marty Brennaman agreed with his criticism of Joey Votto, but he produced no evidence that Dusty or Walt did in fact agree with him. As for Marty, he referred to him as a "HOFer," but Brennaman is not a member of the Baseball Hall of Fame. He is an award winner, the winner of the Ford C. Frick award, not an "inductee" into the HOF.
More importantly, Brennaman is not an award winner or HOF member or anything else when it comes to hitting. If Julius Erving or Paul Hornung or Richard Petty is critical of how Votto hits, fine you can cite them as being a HOFer, and they are, but they are not members of the Baseball Hall of Fame.

[RedsBaron]

What sadly gets lost in this for many fans (that Daugherty and his ilk hold sway over), is that they think it's Votto OR Phillips.

It's not that at all, in fact that's the furthest thing from the truth.

For the Reds, the winning combination is Votto AND Phillips.

Amen. The Reds need them both.
Votto isn't perfect. At least twice this week I have seen him take a 3-2 pitch and be called out on strikes, and each time replays showed the umpire's call was correct. I was mumbling to myself that Joey needed to be more aggressive. I do not want Votto to "expand the strike zone" and swing at pitches that are not strikes, but sometimes he does appear to my uneducated eye to be too selective.
He's still the best player and run producer on the Reds.
Phillips is not the best player and run producer on the Reds but he is still quite valuable and an asset. I am glad the Reds have them both. The Reds offensive woes this season come primarily from the guys who have played shortstop, third base and left field.

[Hoosier Red]

Amen. The Reds need them both.
Votto isn't perfect. At least twice this week I have seen him take a 3-2 pitch and be called out on strikes, and each time replays showed the umpire's call was correct. I was mumbling to myself that Joey needed to be more aggressive. I do not want Votto to "expand the strike zone" and swing at pitches that are not strikes, but sometimes he does appear to my uneducated eye to be too selective.

A couple of points; 1)I don't think anyone would argue Votto's perfect. 2) What you're talking about isn't being more aggressive, but rather to improve his pitch recognition(which is almost superhuman to begin with.)

I think you and he are of the same mindset in terms of "don't swing at balls, but swing at all pitches you believe will be strikes." (At least with 2 strikes he does this.)

On the examples you mentioned, I assume he didn't swing because he thought the pitches would be out of the strikezone. Of course sometimes he's wrong. A pitch he believes will be a ball is actually a strike.

If the default becomes; no matter what, don't strike out looking. He'll have to swing at a lot of pitches that actually would be called balls, because in order to protect the plate on the "relatively" few ones he thinks will be balls, but instead are strikes, he'll also have to swing at a lot of ones he believes are balls, but has to swing at so he doesn't strike out looking.

It's probably best to think of this in terms of probability. If he's 100% sure the pitch is out of the strikezone, he should never swing. If he's 100% sure the pitch will be in the strikezone, he should definitely swing. The trick is at what probability do you make the decision to swing or not swing.

[Tom Servo]

Dusty has probably said something before about Votto's RBI #, but I don't think he is dissatisfied with Votto's performance this year. I very much doubt Jocketty cares an iota about RBI totals.

[wheels]

Amen. The Reds need them both.
Votto isn't perfect. At least twice this week I have seen him take a 3-2 pitch and be called out on strikes, and each time replays showed the umpire's call was correct. I was mumbling to myself that Joey needed to be more aggressive. I do not want Votto to "expand the strike zone" and swing at pitches that are not strikes, but sometimes he does appear to my uneducated eye to be too selective.
He's still the best player and run producer on the Reds.
Phillips is not the best player and run producer on the Reds but he is still quite valuable and an asset. I am glad the Reds have them both. The Reds offensive woes this season come primarily from the guys who have played shortstop, third base and left field.

I agree, and the notion that Votto can actually improve should be frightening to pitchers.