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Thread: A Little More From Joey V

  1. #211
    Making sense of it all Matt700wlw's Avatar
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    Re: A Little More From Joey V

    Quote Originally Posted by OesterPoster View Post
    Might need a new thread for this ESPN article. Nice work:

    http://espn.go.com/blog/sweetspot/po...votto-is-great
    Done

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  3. #212
    Puffy 3:16 Puffy's Avatar
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    Re: A Little More From Joey V

    I hope Votto isnt hearing this crap and applying it. During yesterday's game, Choo steals third and on steal Votto ahead in count 2-0. He then swings at next three pitches and ends up striking out. To me, and only to me, it looked like he said to himself that he was getting in the run anyway he could. I want Votto to be Votto. Not to be affected by this stupid "paid to drive in runs" meme. He is paid to be second best hitter in game (ok, maybe third as I am huge Mike Trout guy).
    "I came here to kick ass and chew bubble gum... and I'm all out of bubble gum."
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  5. #213
    Matt's Dad RANDY IN INDY's Avatar
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    Re: A Little More From Joey V

    Quote Originally Posted by Hoosier Red View Post
    I think the final step to climb for fans(and broadcasters/writers) is understanding the indirect benefits of a walk outweigh the direct benefits of an RBI out.

    Basically, it is always better to not make an out than make an out.
    Even if by walking you leave the work of driving a runner in to the guy behind you.

    That's not to say a Sac Fly or an RBI groundout is useless. If you're going to make an out, it's better to make it a "productive" out than an "unproductive" out, but to the extent a batter can control it, it's better to not make an out at all.
    So it's always better to walk with a runner on third, and less than two outs, rather than hit a sac fly, only to have the next two hitters make outs and leave the runner stranded?
    Talent is God Given: be humble.
    Fame is man given: be thankful.
    Conceit is self given: be careful.

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  6. #214
    Big Red Machine RedsBaron's Avatar
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    Re: A Little More From Joey V

    Quote Originally Posted by Always Red View Post
    Not according to Paul Daugherty, which is why I bumped this thread the other day. In his blog he stated that Marty, Dusty and Jocketty were all in agreement with him that Joey Votto should be "producing" more.

    I've never read that anywhere else, have not seen any of those mentioned even address it. I think it was fabricated out of thin air.
    Probably.
    Marty Brennaman's hatefully ignorant diatribes against Joey Votto has reminded me of stories about the vendetta Harry Caray (another Ford Frick award winner) reportedly carried out against Ken Boyer at the time Caray was the Cardinals announcer. While not in Votto's class as a hitter, Boyer was a terrific third baseman and team leader on the Cardinals from 1955 through 1964; after that decade, when he had been perhaps the best third baseman in baseball and roughly equal to standards later established by Brooks Robinson and Ron Santo, Boyer rapidly declined, in part because of a bad back.
    Anyway, Boyer was so respected by his teammates that he was named team captain in his fourth season even though St. Louis still had Stan Musial in its lineup. He won five Gold Gloves, was a multi-time all star selection, and was the NL MVP in 1964 when the Cards won the World Championship, helped in part by Boyer's MLB leading 119 RBI.
    He was just the kind of player an announcer should respect--yet Caray repeatedly criticized Boyer.
    Teammates would mock Caray's unfair criticisms, such as : "Two outs and Boyer is up. We'll be back with the wrap up in a minute." Caray would also rip Boyer everytime he failed to drive in a run or made an error. I have read that Caray's feud with Boyer started when Boyer refused to be interviewed by Caray during a game while Boyer was in the on deck circle.
    I guess that jealously, ego or just mean spiritedness causes some announcers to mount personal attacks upon players who do not show them the deference they believe they deserve.
    "Hey...Dad. Wanna Have A Catch?" Kevin Costner in "Field Of Dreams."

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  8. #215
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    Re: A Little More From Joey V

    Quote Originally Posted by RANDY IN INDY View Post
    So it's always better to walk with a runner on third, and less than two outs, rather than hit a sac fly, only to have the next two hitters make outs and leave the runner stranded?
    It is always better to avoid an out. If no one makes an out the team will score an infinite number of runs. It is impossible to lose. Of course it's also impossible to win since the game will never end. So I guess there is a point of diminishing returns.
    Last edited by puca; 08-16-2013 at 01:35 PM.

  9. #216
    OlafTheBlack Dan's Avatar
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    Re: A Little More From Joey V

    Quote Originally Posted by RANDY IN INDY View Post
    So it's always better to walk with a runner on third, and less than two outs, rather than hit a sac fly, only to have the next two hitters make outs and leave the runner stranded?
    If the hitters were Cozart and Hannahan, then yeah. But when those hitters are Phillips and Bruce, Votto walking is fine.
    Sabermetrics is this: A batter's goal is to extend the inning. Extend enough innings and you're going to score runs. Extend more innings than your opponent and you're going to score more runs than him.

    Forget the rain. It's never an official game until the Reds piss away a run between third base and home plate. - Bluegrass Redleg

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  11. #217
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    Re: A Little More From Joey V

    Quote Originally Posted by RANDY IN INDY View Post
    So it's always better to walk with a runner on third, and less than two outs, rather than hit a sac fly, only to have the next two hitters make outs and leave the runner stranded?
    There are some obviously flaws in your hypothetical.

    You would have to be clairvoyant to know the next two batters will make unproductive outs.

    Even if you try to hit a sacrifice fly doesn't mean you will be successful. By swinging at a bad pitch you may make an unproductive out yourself - in fact you almost certainly increase the odds. And, I think you would agree, the answer to the question 'is it better to make an unproductive out or take a walk' is much easier.

  12. #218
    RaisorZone Raisor's Avatar
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    Re: A Little More From Joey V

    If you get a solid pitch and hit a fly ball that scores a run, great. If you're chasing balls out of the zone to try to sacrifice, not great.

    If they don't give you a pitch to drive and they want to give you first, let them.
    "But I do know Joey's sister indirectly (or foster sister) and I have heard stories of Joey being into shopping, designer wear, fancy coffees, and pedicures."

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  14. #219
    Matt's Dad RANDY IN INDY's Avatar
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    Re: A Little More From Joey V

    Quote Originally Posted by puca View Post
    There are some obviously flaws in your hypothetical.

    You would have to be clairvoyant to know the next two batters will make unproductive outs.

    Even if you try to hit a sacrifice fly doesn't mean you will be successful. By swinging at a bad pitch you may make an unproductive out yourself - in fact you almost certainly increase the odds. And, I think you would agree, the answer to the question 'is it better to make an unproductive out or take a walk' is much easier.
    I will take the run every time.
    Talent is God Given: be humble.
    Fame is man given: be thankful.
    Conceit is self given: be careful.

    John Wooden

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    Re: A Little More From Joey V

    Quote Originally Posted by RANDY IN INDY View Post
    So it's always better to walk with a runner on third, and less than two outs, rather than hit a sac fly, only to have the next two hitters make outs and leave the runner stranded?
    Yes, it's always better to not make an out. A batter has no control over what the batter behind him does. But a team with fewer than two outs will get more runs from having an additional baserunner on 1st than they'd get if that person made an out.

    Votto taking a walk does nothing to diminish Phillips or Bruce's chances at hitting a Sac Fly. And he puts an additional baserunner on base to give Phillips and Brcue a chance to drive in even more than one run.
    When people say that I donít know what Iím talking about when it comes to sports or writing, I think: Man, you should see me in the rest of my life.
    ---Joe Posnanski

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  17. #221
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    Re: A Little More From Joey V

    Quote Originally Posted by RANDY IN INDY View Post
    I will take the run every time.
    Except that isn't a real choice. In the hypothetical you presented a player can either take a walk or swing at pitches that are not strikes in an attempt to drive in the run. The run is not guaranteed, nor is the fact that the hitters behind him will fail if he walks.

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  19. #222
    Matt's Dad RANDY IN INDY's Avatar
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    Re: A Little More From Joey V

    Quote Originally Posted by puca View Post
    Except that isn't a real choice. In the hypothetical you presented a player can either take a walk or swing at pitches that are not strikes in an attempt to drive in the run. The run is not guaranteed, nor is the fact that the hitters behind him will fail if he walks.
    Unless it is an intentional walk, or a four pitch walk, you are assuming that there were no pitches in the at bat sequence that were hittable strikes. I never presented that a player should swing at pitches out of the strike zone. That is your idea.
    Talent is God Given: be humble.
    Fame is man given: be thankful.
    Conceit is self given: be careful.

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  20. #223
    .377 in 1905 CySeymour's Avatar
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    Re: A Little More From Joey V

    Quote Originally Posted by RANDY IN INDY View Post
    Unless it is an intentional walk, or a four pitch walk, you are assuming that there were no pitches in the at bat sequence that were hittable strikes. I never presented that a player should swing at pitches out of the strike zone. That is your idea.
    A pitch that the hitter can line into the gap? Sure. However if it's a pitchers pitch, then an out is likely, hence not a good outcome.

    I guess you could look at the best case scenarios for this as:

    hit > walk > out with a run scoring > out > double play
    ...the 2-2 to Woodsen and here it comes...and it is swung on and missed! And Tom Browning has pitched a perfect game! Twenty-seven outs in a row, and he is being mobbed by his teammates, just to the thirdbase side of the mound.

  21. #224
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    Re: A Little More From Joey V

    The interesting thing is, I think a lot of people arguing "always take the walk" would kill Dusty if he pitched to, say, Mike Trout or Miguel Cabrera in that same situation. Maybe I'm wrong, but I think they would be a lot more willing to give up the walk in that case and take their chances with the next two guys.

    My point is this -- there's a good reason the other team would pitch around guys like Votto, Trout or Cabrera in those situations. Sure, it could lead to more big innings, but my guess is when you have a truly exceptional hitter and the next two guys are strikeout/DP-prone, it also probably increases the likelihood of getting out of the inning without allowing a run.

    So, while taking that walk every time may ultimately lead to more runs in the macro, I think it also decreases the chances for scoring that one run you need in the micro.

    Now ... if the other team effectively pitches around one of those guys and doesn't give them anything to hit, then they have to take the walk. But if they get something in the strike zone, jump on it.

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  23. #225
    Matt's Dad RANDY IN INDY's Avatar
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    Re: A Little More From Joey V

    Quote Originally Posted by CySeymour View Post
    A pitch that the hitter can line into the gap? Sure. However if it's a pitchers pitch, then an out is likely, hence not a good outcome.

    I guess you could look at the best case scenarios for this as:

    hit > walk > out with a run scoring > out > double play
    That surmises that a hitter never takes a good pitch. They all take good pitches, just like all pitchers throw "mistakes."
    Talent is God Given: be humble.
    Fame is man given: be thankful.
    Conceit is self given: be careful.

    John Wooden


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