A Little More From Joey V

[Hoosier Red]

Why didn't Bruce, Mesoraco, or even Latos dive for that ball as well? Surely, one of them would have gotten it.

None of them would have gotten it and don't call me shirley.

[RedTeamGo!]

I wasn't trying to do anything but post my opinion and I never said he was depressed (you can still be affected by sad things w/o becoming depressed). I guess I'm not allowed to have a heart around here either. That goes along well with the knowledge that I'm not supposed to be optimistic or positive about things anymore. I should start making a list. *sigh*

Go Reds this afternoon. *back to lurking*

Depressed does not have to mean clincally depressed.

If my father were to die I would certainly be depressed, that does not mean I would be clinically depressed. Of course you can have a heart, and as I said I understood where you were coming from and can even see it as a possibility. I just meant I could see the Votto trolls seeing that and being all "he is thinking of his dad, he is soft, he is a headcase!" which has happened before.

I dislike when people tell others not to express what is on their mind though, so I apologize. I should not have done that. Hopefully you are back to being an active member of redszone.

[puca]

I dive for the ball every time I watch the replay.

[mikemo14]

You can argue all you want about Votto offensively, but anyone who has watched the Reds this year would have to admit that his defense has been horrible. He is on a pace to commit 17 or 18 errors for a first baseman and that is awful.

[hebroncougar]

You can argue all you want about Votto offensively, but anyone who has watched the Reds this year would have to admit that his defense has been horrible. He is on a pace to commit 17 or 18 errors for a first baseman and that is awful.

Now YOU'RE changing your argument. I thought his offense was awful. Joey's biggest problem on offense is not getting pitches to hit with men on base. He's getting on base at a massive clip. Defensively, he's not been up to snuff.

[RedEye]

You can argue all you want about Votto offensively, but anyone who has watched the Reds this year would have to admit that his defense has been horrible. He is on a pace to commit 17 or 18 errors for a first baseman and that is awful.

I hate it when people write "anyone who watched the Reds this year" as if they know what everyone thinks. Let me tell you, I have watched the Reds this year a great deal, and I don't agree that Votto's D has been "awful." I also don't think errors begin to tell the complete story of how he has actually been playing in the field.

[mikemo14]

Now YOU'RE changing your argument. I thought his offense was awful. Joey's biggest problem on offense is not getting pitches to hit with men on base. He's getting on base at a massive clip. Defensively, he's not been up to snuff.

Never said he was awful on offense. For whatever reason he is just simply not as productive as he has been before the injury. For this team to go deep into the playoffs I feel he is going to have to produce the way he did when he won the MVP a few years ago.

[mikemo14]

I hate it when people write "anyone who watched the Reds this year" as if they know what everyone thinks. Let me tell you, I have watched the Reds this year a great deal, and I don't agree that Votto's D has been "awful." I also don't think errors begin to tell the complete story of how he has actually been playing in the field.

12 Errors for a first baseman in two thirds of a season is an extremely high number of errors in my book.

[KC2135]

I understand that RBI total isn't everything, but if you are a great player and get the money he gets you are expected to produce. You can say all you want about how great his obp is and how the guys in front of him are letting him down, but just look at other players that are great. Grab Miguel Cabrera's baseball card, and I promise he will get damn close to his avg, hr, and RBI almost every year. He has done it 10 years now, and he hasn't always hit behind the same guys. So, I do think if you are as great as everyone thinks Votto is, and are paid to produce then I believe you can control some of those things. Everybody around here throws jabs at all of our players, but the minute someone brings up a logical point about Votto, then we call them stupid. I think a lot of people on this team could do more, and I believe Votto is our best player. I still think he could do more.

[RedsManRick]

I understand that RBI total isn't everything, but if you are a great player and get the money he gets you are expected to produce. You can say all you want about how great his obp is and how the guys in front of him are letting him down, but just look at other players that are great. Grab Miguel Cabrera's baseball card, and I promise he will get damn close to his avg, hr, and RBI almost every year. He has done it 10 years now, and he hasn't always hit behind the same guys. So, I do think if you are as great as everyone thinks Votto is, and are paid to produce then I believe you can control some of those things. Everybody around here throws jabs at all of our players, but the minute someone brings up a logical point about Votto, then we call them stupid. I think a lot of people on this team could do more, and I believe Votto is our best player. I still think he could do more.

You keep using this word "produce" as if it were synonymous with RBI. It isn't.

If Joey Votto's crime is that he's not quite as great as Miguel Cabrera, I can live with that. Miguel Cabrera will likely finish his career as an inner circle Hall of Famer.

Nobody is calling anybody stupid. Joey Votto could drive in a higher percentage of runners; he's having a poor season in that regard. Here's the thing. He's hitting .302/.458/.490 with RISP. It's not like he's hitting like crap in those situations. He's just walking a lot and not hitting for as much power as he has in the past. Yep. He could be better. If that's the only point, I don't think you'll find anybody who disagrees.

It would help if he got more to hit. It would also help if he struck out less -- like, say, Miguel Cabrera or Brandon Phillips. That said, I wonder if having a Prince Fielder behind him or a guy with a OBP north of .300 immediately ahead of him would help.

This just reminds me so much of Adam Dunn. Why are we so obsessed with finding the slight flaws in our best players and bemoaning the fact that they aren't perfect?

[KC2135]

You keep using this word "produce" as if it were synonymous with RBI. It isn't.

If Joey Votto's crime is that he's not quite as great as Miguel Cabrera, I can live with tha

I was just looking at a guy that I thought was on the same talent/pay level, and trying to show that players do consistently drive in runs. It seems like some people think that's impossible to control. I was just showing a guy that has done it for 10 years.

[kaldaniels]

I was just looking at a guy that I thought was on the same talent/pay level, and trying to show that players do consistently drive in runs. It seems like some people think that's impossible to control. I was just showing a guy that has done it for 10 years.

If you are going to matchup those two guys in terms of RBIs it is only fair that you bring more info to the table.

How many guys in total were on first base when each of the two men batted, and what percent of them scored?

Second base?

Third base?

As someone said earlier most everyone will grant you Cabrera > Votto, but flipping up their RBI totals with no context doesn't really tell us much.

Did I hear right the other day that Choo just hit his first home run of the year with a man in base (which does seem to be a bit of an anomaly)? Does that mean Choo is a bum with runners on, or is it a function of the 8 hole and the pitcher batting in front of him?

[KC2135]

If you are going to matchup those two guys in terms of RBIs it is only fair that you bring more info to the table.

How many guys in total were on first base when each of the two men batted, and what percent of them scored?

Second base?

Third base?

As someone said earlier most everyone will grant you Cabrera > Votto, but flipping up their RBI totals with no context doesn't really tell us much.

Did I hear right the other day that Choo just hit his first home run of the year with a man in base (which does seem to be a bit of an anomaly)? Does that mean Choo is a bum with runners on, or is it a function of the 8 hole and the pitcher batting in front of him?

My context is that he has done it for 10 years. I don't care what other numbers you put up there. There is no such thing as 10 years worth of hitting luck. Also, Choo is batting lead off. Votto and Cabrera are hitting in or around the same spot.

[kaldaniels]

My context is that he has done it for 10 years. I don't care what other numbers you put up there. There is no such thing as 10 years worth of hitting luck. Also, Choo is batting lead off. Votto and Cabrera are hitting in or around the same spot.

There is such a thing as 10 years of hitting with a higher number of men on base.

[kaldaniels]

For their career.

Miguel Cabrera 19% of baserunners scored.

Joey Votto 18%.