A Little More From Joey V

[KC2135]

There is such a thing as 10 years of hitting with a higher number of men on base.

That's true, but at the same time what are Votto's numbers in 2010 and 2011 compared to 2013? Also, I don't know for a fact, but I would bet that Cabrera wasn't playing with too many studs in front of him during his entire run with the Marlins. I know they were good every other year or something like that. My whole point is that players can consistently drive in runs through their entire career baring injuries. Our man Griffey was pretty good at it during his playing days, and he didn't play with too many great teams.

[wheels]

For their career.

Miguel Cabrera 19% of baserunners scored.

Joey Votto 18%.

Zing!

[KC2135]

Zing!

This year Votto is at 12%

[Larkin Fan]

This year Votto is at 12%

So the 2013 season overwrites an entire career?

[KC2135]

So the 2013 season overwrites an entire career?

It's only 6 years in. I'm just saying that he isn't perfect, and should not be exempt from the stone throwing around here. Also, I think he has lost a little bit since the injury, but that could very well come back. Like I said before he is our best player, but people can complain about his play without being insane

[harangatang]

I would be curious to know what the average number of RBIs across the NL this year from the third spot in the lineup. When David Wright went down a few days ago, he had 54 RBIs and McCutchen has 65 RBIs. With Votto coming in at 52, he isn't that far off at all. Also of note, the 3 players I mentioned also are 3 of the 5 position players in the NL with a WAR above 5. I couldn't imagine how bad the Reds would suck if they had Wright and McCutchen on this team and their lack of RBI production.

[mth123]

I think a big reason Votto isn't driving runs in is the people behind him. BP is having a flukishly good year driving people in but he's also making a boatload of outs with his OBP in the low .300s. And Bruce for all his success this year with extra base hits isn't doing real well with OBP either. You've got about .100 better chance of getting BP or Bruce out compared to Votto.

I think there is some truth to this, but unless the Reds aquire Miguel Cabrera to hit behind Votto, I still think teams will target Votto as the guy they won't let beat them no matter who is hitting behind him. This is why I've come around to the idea that Votto should be hitting number 2. Teams are going to walk him and not let him be the RBI guy. He will be the league leader in OBP every year and without the out in front of him, he might be a 120 run Scored guy in the 2 hole. Votto is going to be the best choice to hit in any spot in the order, so the idea that he's the best choice for the 3 hole doesn't sway me that much.

[mth123]

That was properly scored as a triple.
I sometimes think some posters here think Joey Votto should be like Bugs Bunny in the old cartoon where Bugs plays all nine positions by himself and defeats the "Gashouse Gorillas."

"Wham, a homah"

[gilpdawg]

Never said he was awful on offense. For whatever reason he is just simply not as productive as he has been before the injury.

This statement has no basis in fact. He's pretty much right in the same ballpark as his entire career. Production is production. It doesn't matter if it comes in the form of more power or more on base skills, it is production. If truth be told his 2011 season was less productive than 2013 so far.

But of course that didn't fit the narrative back then, now did it?

[RadfordVA]

I would be curious to know what the average number of RBIs across the NL this year from the third spot in the lineup. When David Wright went down a few days ago, he had 54 RBIs and McCutchen has 65 RBIs. With Votto coming in at 52, he isn't that far off at all. Also of note, the 3 players I mentioned also are 3 of the 5 position players in the NL with a WAR above 5. I couldn't imagine how bad the Reds would suck if they had Wright and McCutchen on this team and their lack of RBI production.

The Reds #3 hitters are 12th in NL in RBI. 1st in hits, 3rd in Runs scored, 4th in slugging and 1st in OPS.

http://espn.go.com/mlb/stats/team/_/...BIs/order/true

[mdccclxix]

Votto's going to have a 12 rbi game and there will be lots of "are ya happy NOW!?!?"

YES!

[RadfordVA]

Votto's going to have a 12 rbi game and there will be lots of "are ya happy NOW!?!?"

YES!

Only if he played stellar defense as well I am sure.

[traderumor]

This was very surprising, but whoever was on WLW at about 6:30 made very good arguments why focusing on the RBI stat is a fool's game. He used the example of the first inning, when Joey did not get an RBI because he hit the ball too hard to score the runner from second, but Bruce got an RBI because he just barely beat out the relay throw on a weak grounder to SS.

At this point, it is about as absurd as complaining about Adam Dunn's sacrifice fly streak back in the lost decade.

[RadfordVA]

This was very surprising, but whoever was on WLW at about 6:30 made very good arguments why focusing on the RBI stat is a fool's game. He used the example of the first inning, when Joey did not get an RBI because he hit the ball too hard to score the runner from second, but Bruce got an RBI because he just barely beat out the relay throw on a weak grounder to SS.

At this point, it is about as absurd as complaining about Adam Dunn's sacrifice fly streak back in the lost decade.

For this reason most hitting coaches will tell hitters to avoid as much as possible looking at or caring about any stats. A lot of it is out of the hitters control. All he can do is hit it hard. Sometimes that will be right at someone. People say it evens out over time and for most part it does but not always.

I really like ESPN's attempt at the well hit average stat. Instead of just looking at BABIP lets truly look at each at bat and see if he hit it well or not. Seems like a good start.

[CySeymour]

Cabrera gets a big help by having Fielder hitting behind him. Pitchers have a fear of Prince, not so much of Phillips. I'd like to see if Votto got pitched differently if Bruce had a couple hundred atbats hitting behind Votto a season, instead of a handful of games.