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Thread: Pitch framing numbers

  1. #1
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    Pitch framing numbers

    I'm a catching junkie so I found this article pretty interesting. I'm sure several guys here have seen it already but if you haven't....

    http://www.fangraphs.com/blogs/prese...pitch-framers/
    Everything that can be counted does not necessarily count; everything that counts cannot necessarily be counted.

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    Re: Pitch framing numbers

    Yadier Molina Forgot How To Frame A Pitch

    Yadier Molina is falling apart. Itís not his hitting, and itís not his base running. Itís too early in the season to say much that is meaningful about those skills, which can take months of stats to become reliable.

    Itís the Cardinals catcherís defense thatís a mess. Molinaís pitch framing has collapsed, dropping from third-best in 2013 to 60th in 2015.1 And the Cardinals are at real risk because of it.
    "Man, the pitch looks fast, even in slow motion." Thom Brennaman on Chapman's fastball.

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    post hype sleeper cincinnati chili's Avatar
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    Re: Pitch framing numbers

    God, how I hate pitch framing. Let's automate balls/strikes so I can just die happy.
    ". . . acquiring J. Blanton from Oakland for, apparently, Bailey/Cueto, Votto and a lesser prospect. I do it in a second . . . The Reds' equation this year is simple: Make Matt Belisle your #3 starter . . . trade for Blanton, win 85 or more, be in the mix all summer." - Paul Daugherty, Feb. 8, 2008

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    Re: Pitch framing numbers

    Quote Originally Posted by 757690 View Post
    In other news, Dee Gordon is batting .433, Nelson Cruz is on pace for 84 HRs, Joc Pederson is walking in 20% of his plate appearances, Chase Utley has a .082 BABIP, Jeurys Familia leads the league in saves, and Bartolo Colon has a 34:1 SO:BB ratio. Small samples gonna small sample.
    Last edited by RedsManRick; 05-07-2015 at 01:26 AM.
    Games are won on run differential -- scoring more than your opponent. Runs are runs, scored or prevented they all count the same. Worry about scoring more and allowing fewer, not which positions contribute to which side of the equation or how "consistent" you are at your current level of performance.

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    Re: Pitch framing numbers

    Quote Originally Posted by RedsManRick View Post
    In other news, Dee Gordon is batting .433, Nelson Cruz is on pace for 84 HRs, Joc Pederson is walking in 20% of his plate appearances, Chase Utley has a .082 BABIP, Jeurys Familia leads the league in saves, and Bartolo Colon has a 34:1 SO:BB ratio. Small samples gonna small sample.
    The article adressess that. This isn't a small sample size issue. He's been steadily declining in this area for the past two years.

    Still, rapid is an understatement for Molina’s framing slump. Molina’s framing has been falling off of a cliff for two consecutive years, dropping from excellent to above average from 2013 to 2014 and from above average to poor from 2014 to this year. The decline went largely unnoticed last year, as Molina struggled with injuries that limited his playing time.

    This year, it’s unmistakable. If you look for two-year declines as large as Molina’s since 2008, there’s only one other player with as many chances who has fallen off as much: Brewers catcher Jonathan Lucroy this year. (Strangely, Lucroy is 28 years old, still relatively young.) Age tends to reduce framing ability, but rarely as quickly as it has in Molina’s case.
    "Man, the pitch looks fast, even in slow motion." Thom Brennaman on Chapman's fastball.

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    Re: Pitch framing numbers

    One argument I heard last night on MLB Network was that it was more so the fault of the pitching staff than Molina. They argued that someone of Molina's age/experience doesn't just forget how to frame a pitch, and that it's on the pitchers to be able to consistently hit the glove. If they're hitting the glove consistently then it's much easier to softly move the glove into a beneficial position, but if the pitchers aren't hitting your glove location or you don't know where the ball is going to be because of wild pitch movement, you'll have quicker/harsher movements and are less likely to get the benefit of the doubt.

    Given how young/inexperienced the Cardinals pitching staff is I can see that definitely being a big factor into his decline, because as much as I like to dislike Molina, it's hard to accept that one of the best catchers in the league for years on end has simply forgotten this part of his job.

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    Re: Pitch framing numbers

    Quote Originally Posted by androosh View Post
    One argument I heard last night on MLB Network was that it was more so the fault of the pitching staff than Molina. They argued that someone of Molina's age/experience doesn't just forget how to frame a pitch, and that it's on the pitchers to be able to consistently hit the glove. If they're hitting the glove consistently then it's much easier to softly move the glove into a beneficial position, but if the pitchers aren't hitting your glove location or you don't know where the ball is going to be because of wild pitch movement, you'll have quicker/harsher movements and are less likely to get the benefit of the doubt.

    Given how young/inexperienced the Cardinals pitching staff is I can see that definitely being a big factor into his decline, because as much as I like to dislike Molina, it's hard to accept that one of the best catchers in the league for years on end has simply forgotten this part of his job.
    That's a good theory. The only problem with it is that the Cardinal staff this year is very similar to their staff in 2012-13, when Molina was one of the best at pitch framing.

    I think the title of the article is misleading. Clearly, Molina didn't "forget" how or pitch frame. But it's possible that his physical skills have decreased much more rapidly than normal. His OPS is .637 so far this year, and other defensive skills have been in decline too. Fangraphs has him as basically a replacement level player so far this year.
    "Man, the pitch looks fast, even in slow motion." Thom Brennaman on Chapman's fastball.

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    Re: Pitch framing numbers

    Quote Originally Posted by 757690 View Post
    That's a good theory. The only problem with it is that the Cardinal staff this year is very similar to their staff in 2012-13, when Molina was one of the best at pitch framing.

    I think the title of the article is misleading. Clearly, Molina didn't "forget" how or pitch frame. But it's possible that his physical skills have decreased much more rapidly than normal. His OPS is .637 so far this year, and other defensive skills have been in decline too. Fangraphs has him as basically a replacement level player so far this year.
    Or it's possible that he's declining normally for a 32 year old guy who has caught 6700 innings in his career since 2004. Drawing any conclusion about a decline "more rapid than normal" based on numbers in May is silly.
    I don't like to sound egotistical, but every time I stepped up to the plate with a bat in my hands, I couldn't help but feel sorry for the pitcher.
    -Rogers Hornsby

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    Re: Pitch framing numbers

    Quote Originally Posted by ac084c View Post
    Or it's possible that he's declining normally for a 32 year old guy who has caught 6700 innings in his career since 2004. Drawing any conclusion about a decline "more rapid than normal" based on numbers in May is silly.
    Read the article. It's based on the last few years, and it's clear he's not declining at a normal rate for a 32 year old. He's falling off a cliff, in nearly every aspect of his game.
    "Man, the pitch looks fast, even in slow motion." Thom Brennaman on Chapman's fastball.

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    Re: Pitch framing numbers

    Quote Originally Posted by 757690 View Post
    Read the article. It's based on the last few years, and it's clear he's not declining at a normal rate for a 32 year old. He's falling off a cliff, in nearly every aspect of his game.
    I've read the article.

    I'm going to take the high road and not escalate a discussion which you're very obviously trying to take down the path that you always take it with this particular player.

    That being said.... Devin Mesoraco is below-replacement level according to Fangraphs in 2015. In May.

    Let's have this discussion again in September. I'll entertain your conclusions then. I'll even PM you my email address so we don't bother anyone else with the discussion.
    I don't like to sound egotistical, but every time I stepped up to the plate with a bat in my hands, I couldn't help but feel sorry for the pitcher.
    -Rogers Hornsby

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    Re: Pitch framing numbers

    Quote Originally Posted by ac084c View Post
    I've read the article.

    I'm going to take the high road and not escalate a discussion which you're very obviously trying to take down the path that you always take it with this particular player.

    That being said.... Devin Mesoraco is below-replacement level according to Fangraphs in 2015. In May.

    Let's have this discussion again in September. I'll entertain your conclusions then. I'll even PM you my email address so we don't bother anyone else with the discussion.
    The road I'm going down is the same as the article. The Cardinals are in trouble if Molina has declined this rapidly.
    "Man, the pitch looks fast, even in slow motion." Thom Brennaman on Chapman's fastball.

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    Re: Pitch framing numbers

    Quote Originally Posted by 757690 View Post
    The road I'm going down is the same as the article. The Cardinals are in trouble if Molina has declined this rapidly.
    The article is sensationalistic, and so is your statement.
    I don't like to sound egotistical, but every time I stepped up to the plate with a bat in my hands, I couldn't help but feel sorry for the pitcher.
    -Rogers Hornsby

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    Re: Pitch framing numbers

    Quote Originally Posted by ac084c View Post
    The article is sensationalistic, and so is your statement.
    538 has one of the best track records in the stat analysis business. They are one of the least sensationalist websites out there. In fact, they are usually accused of being too detected and analytical.
    "Man, the pitch looks fast, even in slow motion." Thom Brennaman on Chapman's fastball.

  18. #14
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    Re: Pitch framing numbers

    Quote Originally Posted by 757690 View Post
    538 has one of the best track records in the stat analysis business. They are one of the least sensationalist websites out there. In fact, they are usually accused of being too detected and analytical.
    Both the title, and the portion you quoted are evidence that it is sensationalistic clickbait.

    Molina is "falling apart" and his "defense is a mess" - yet the only evidence presented: pitch-framing.
    I don't like to sound egotistical, but every time I stepped up to the plate with a bat in my hands, I couldn't help but feel sorry for the pitcher.
    -Rogers Hornsby

  19. #15
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    Re: Pitch framing numbers

    Quote Originally Posted by ac084c View Post
    Both the title, and the portion you quoted are evidence that it is sensationalistic clickbait.

    Molina is "falling apart" and his "defense is a mess" - yet the only evidence presented: pitch-framing.
    And I get accused of being a "homer." Lol.
    "Man, the pitch looks fast, even in slow motion." Thom Brennaman on Chapman's fastball.


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