Turn Off Ads?
Results 1 to 8 of 8

Thread: Jonathan Lucroy on Receiving

  1. #1
    Stat Wanker Hodiernus RedsManRick's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2004
    Location
    Chicago, IL
    Posts
    15,898

    Jonathan Lucroy on Receiving

    Fangraphs just posted an interview with Brewers catcher Jonathan Lucroy.

    http://www.fangraphs.com/blogs/jonat...-of-receiving/

    One of the biggest sabermetric findings in the last few years is that catcher "framing of pitches" is a very real skill that has significant value. Additionally, scouting analysis of the players who score well on the metrics has shown that there are a set of characteristics of how catchers catch that seem to be the drivers of this effect. And these characteristics are no big surprise; they're the ones catcher instructors have preached for years. In short, be "quiet" and stay out of the ump's way.

    Call it what you will, framing, receiving, etc., but it has proven quite reliable (same guys are good/bad every year) and the potential to cost or save runs is significant -- some studies have estimated the impact of an especially good or bad season could be as much as 3 wins worth of extra strikes on the upide and 6 losses worth of lost strikes on the down side. That's a massive swing.

    If this strikes you as crazy, I would urge you to at least read the research before making your critique of it. Though not perfect or completely definitive, the research is quite robust and may already addressed, if not fully accounted for, for your critique. As for the smell test, I would say that our sense of smell is not finely calibrated when it comes to defensive value and that we should keep an open mind.

    But setting aside the conversion of additional/fewer strikes in to runs, there is no debate about the fact that some catchers reliably get more strikes for their pitchers than others and that Lucroy has consistently shown to be among the best in MLB. He discusses the issue at length in the linked article.

    Of course, it brings me back to Mesoraco. It has been my observation that he is not a very good receiver, or at least not a consistent one. Most notably, he seems to stab at the ball quite a bit, particularly on low pitches.

    I had trouble finding a stat site that actually calculates catcher defensive production using framing data on an ongoing basis. But I'm curious, purely from the scouting standpoint, what do people think about Mesoraco's performance this year as a receiver?
    Last edited by RedsManRick; 08-09-2013 at 03:00 PM.
    Games are won on run differential -- scoring more than your opponent. Runs are runs, scored or prevented they all count the same. Worry about scoring more and allowing fewer, not which positions contribute to which side of the equation or how "consistent" you are at your current level of performance.

  2. Likes:

    *BaseClogger* (08-09-2013)

  3. Turn Off Ads?
  4. #2
    Member mdccclxix's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2009
    Location
    Crown
    Posts
    3,615

    Re: Jonathan Lucroy on Receiving

    I think he's always going to need to stay fresh, as he seems to have some lapses in performance back there. In general, the pitching's been great still.

  5. #3
    One and a half men Patrick Bateman's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2003
    Location
    Calgary, AB
    Posts
    5,829

    Re: Jonathan Lucroy on Receiving

    Hey, I'm all for gay marriage rights... but do we really need to hear explicit articles about it on a basebball board?

  6. Likes:

    *BaseClogger* (08-09-2013), Tom Servo (08-09-2013), Wonderful Monds (08-09-2013)

  7. #4
    Member Wonderful Monds's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2011
    Posts
    2,687

    Re: Jonathan Lucroy on Receiving

    Quote Originally Posted by Patrick Bateman View Post
    Hey, I'm all for gay marriage rights... but do we really need to hear explicit articles about it on a basebball board?
    I thought this was a family board!!


    (Sorry that never stops being funny to me)
    They don't think it be like it is, but it do.
    Quote Originally Posted by Larry Schuler View Post
    He has also taught me that even when the Reds win it is important to focus on the fact that they could have lost.

  8. Likes:

    *BaseClogger* (08-09-2013)

  9. #5
    The Big Dog mth123's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2006
    Posts
    14,693

    Re: Jonathan Lucroy on Receiving

    Pitch framing is another long acknowledged skill that Sabermetrics is just now coming to the realization exists and is taking credit as if they discovered something. This is easily the most off-putting thing about these stat discussions for me. I know RMR didn't mean anything by it and he's about as good, savvy and fair minded saber guy (or any other kind of fan) as there is out there, but this phrase drives me nuts.

    One of the biggest sabermetric findings in the last few years is that catcher "framing of pitches" is a very real skill that has significant value.
    People have known this for a long time. It's not some new finding. Just like "pick a good one" was around long before the term "plate discipline", "OBP and Slugging %" have been around forever and long before OPS and other stats based upon them and the idea of "the way the ball bounces" having an impact on the game was common knowledge long before anyone calculated BABIP.

    Sorry Rick, it's just a pet peeve of mine and I think it drives people away from stats when its presented that way. Stats are great and some of the modern analysis has been very informative, but the game has been around a long time and people knew things about how it worked before Bill James and his disciples. Heck, Bill James will tell you that.
    "All I can tell them is pick a good one and sock it." --BABE RUTH

    Having better players makes "the right time" or "the big hit" happen a lot more often. PLUS PLUS

  10. #6
    Stat Wanker Hodiernus RedsManRick's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2004
    Location
    Chicago, IL
    Posts
    15,898

    Re: Jonathan Lucroy on Receiving

    Quote Originally Posted by mth123 View Post
    Pitch framing is another long acknowledged skill that Sabermetrics is just now coming to the realization exists and is taking credit as if they discovered something. This is easily the most off-putting thing about these stat discussions for me. I know RMR didn't mean anything by it and he's about as good, savvy and fair minded saber guy (or any other kind of fan) as there is out there, but this phrase drives me nuts.



    People have known this for a long time. It's not some new finding. Just like "pick a good one" was around long before the term "plate discipline", "OBP and Slugging %" have been around forever and long before OPS and other stats based upon them and the idea of "the way the ball bounces" having an impact on the game was common knowledge long before anyone calculated BABIP.

    Sorry Rick, it's just a pet peeve of mine and I think it drives people away from stats when its presented that way. Stats are great and some of the modern analysis has been very informative, but the game has been around a long time and people knew things about how it worked before Bill James and his disciples. Heck, Bill James will tell you that.
    Totally fair point. What I should have said is that they were finally able to measure it.

    The problem with the "we've always known that" argument is that there are other things which are supposed wisdom which actually aren't all that they are cracked up to be. So from my perspective, there is real value in validating existing wisdom and measuring it in a way that allows it to be part of a holistic player valuation.
    Games are won on run differential -- scoring more than your opponent. Runs are runs, scored or prevented they all count the same. Worry about scoring more and allowing fewer, not which positions contribute to which side of the equation or how "consistent" you are at your current level of performance.

  11. Likes:

    mth123 (08-09-2013)

  12. #7
    Member wlf WV's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2008
    Location
    huntington,wv
    Posts
    607

    Re: Jonathan Lucroy on Receiving

    I have long been a proponent of Ryan Hanigan being under appreciated( for OBP and his receiving,throwing) .Mesoraco has a long ways to go before he is as valuable as a healthy Hanigan.
    May the Lord bless

  13. #8
    Member
    Join Date
    May 2012
    Location
    Louisville, KY
    Posts
    718

    Re: Jonathan Lucroy on Receiving

    Very cool article, thanks for posting Rick. The art of catching is one of the most under appreciated things in baseball.
    Everything that can be counted does not necessarily count; everything that counts cannot necessarily be counted.

    All the dishes rattle in the cupboards when the elephants arrive


Turn Off Ads?

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •  

Board Moderators may, at their discretion and judgment, delete and/or edit any messages that violate any of the following guidelines: 1. Explicit references to alleged illegal or unlawful acts. 2. Graphic sexual descriptions. 3. Racial or ethnic slurs. 4. Use of edgy language (including masked profanity). 5. Direct personal attacks, flames, fights, trolling, baiting, name-calling, general nuisance, excessive player criticism or anything along those lines. 6. Posting spam. 7. Each person may have only one user account. It is fine to be critical here - that's what this board is for. But let's not beat a subject or a player to death, please.

Thank you, and most importantly, enjoy yourselves!


RedsZone.com is a privately owned website and is not affiliated with the Cincinnati Reds or Major League Baseball


Contact us: Boss | GIK | BCubb2003 | dabvu2498 | Gallen5862 | LexRedsFan | Plus Plus | RedlegJake | redsfan1995 | The Operator | Tommyjohn25