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Thread: What am I to make of some NL WAR leaders?

  1. #46
    Five Tool Fool jojo's Avatar
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    Re: What am I to make of some NL WAR leaders?

    Quote Originally Posted by nate View Post
    fWAR is a better indicator of who the best player was than HR, RBI and batting average or ERA and pitching Wins.

    It is also imperfect, yes.

    Fortunately, the range of superlatives from perfect to anti-perfect is wide so we don't have to be perfect in order to be better.

    As Mr. Bateman said, using fWAR to establish a hierarchy of who was best allows further research. For example, looking at components like wOBA, xFIP, et al. can give an idea about who is likely to continue being "best" going forward and who isn't. One can break those components down further into useful granular stats like BA, HR, K/9 and so one. It's also possible to look at how said player created his "bestness" - through defense, offense and pitching.

    Although I'm not a fan of br.com's WAR (bWAR? rWAR? I can't remember), I think it's noble of them to create a similar measure and it can be useful and interesting to discuss wide variations between the two systems.

    So if we want to have a real conversation about WAR and it's uses, that would be great.

    If we want to have bickering, neener-neenering and nonversational nonsense, let's just close the thread now.

    Choose your adventure.
    How about a simple poll thread:

    1)WAR is garbage!!
    2)WAR is useful.

    Everyone could satisfy their need to publically delare their allegiance and maybe there would be fewer, "WAR is garbage, just junk really!!! Discuss." threads.
    "This isnít stats vs scouts - this is stats and scouts working together, building an organization that blends the best of both worlds. This is the blueprint for how a baseball organization should be run. And, whether the baseball men of the 20th century like it or not, this is where baseball is going."---Dave Cameron, U.S.S. Mariner

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  3. #47
    We Need Our Myths reds1869's Avatar
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    Re: What am I to make of some NL WAR leaders?

    When did all baseball discussion turn into Brian Kenny vs. Harold Reynolds ridiculousness? It really doesn't have to be black and white, right or wrong. And we can certainly disagree without thinking the "other side" is somehow the enemy. Attack the argument, not the person. I don't mean to preach and don't really have a right to. I just don't understand the decrease in civility lately.

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  5. #48
    Et tu, Brutus? Brutus's Avatar
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    Re: What am I to make of some NL WAR leaders?

    Quote Originally Posted by jojo View Post
    I have NEVER said the ORG is not the place for snark. The ORG is a perfect venue for snark. It's not the place to drop a drive bye opinion without justification or research and bristle when challenged nor is it the place to grossly mischaracterized the positions of others. In other words, when critiquing a "preacher", one needs to make sure they actually understand the sermon.
    No, any community that is supposed to be civil and promote discussion cannot, by definition, be promoting snark when replying to other posters. That kind of behavior makes everyone want to post less, as it's not worth the hassle of putting up with rude, unpleasant posters.
    "No matter how good you are, you're going to lose one-third of your games. No matter how bad you are you're going to win one-third of your games. It's the other third that makes the difference." ~Tommy Lasorda

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  7. #49
    Five Tool Fool jojo's Avatar
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    Re: What am I to make of some NL WAR leaders?

    Quote Originally Posted by Brutus View Post
    No, any community that is supposed to be civil and promote discussion cannot, by definition, be promoting snark when replying to other posters. That kind of behavior makes everyone want to post less, as it's not worth the hassle of putting up with rude, unpleasant posters.
    You're entitled to your opinion and you're welcome to insulate yourself from snark on the Internet though good luck finding a high quality discussion board that agrees with your position. Snark is a valid way to express one's opinion and is in keeping with a standard of maintaining high quality discussion.
    "This isnít stats vs scouts - this is stats and scouts working together, building an organization that blends the best of both worlds. This is the blueprint for how a baseball organization should be run. And, whether the baseball men of the 20th century like it or not, this is where baseball is going."---Dave Cameron, U.S.S. Mariner

  8. #50
    On the brink wolfboy's Avatar
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    Re: What am I to make of some NL WAR leaders?

    Quote Originally Posted by jojo View Post
    You're entitled to your opinion and you're welcome to insulate yourself from snark on the Internet though good luck finding a high quality discussion board that agrees with your position. Snark is a valid way to express one's opinion and is in keeping with a standard of maintaining high quality discussion.
    I think a lot of folks disagree with that.
    How do we know he's not Mel Torme?

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  10. #51
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    Re: What am I to make of some NL WAR leaders?

    Quote Originally Posted by wolfboy View Post
    I think a lot of folks disagree with that.
    I agree. And while I don't speak for them, I'd imagine two of those folks would be Boss and GIK since jojo's view of what defines "high quality discussion" is contrary to the very principles that this board was founded upon. I imagine that if this type of "high quality discussion" was what the masses truly wanted, Redszone would have never been formed and we'd all still be posting on Cincinnati.com.

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  12. #52
    Et tu, Brutus? Brutus's Avatar
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    Re: What am I to make of some NL WAR leaders?

    Is it really being argued that snide remarks toward other posters are necessary to have a high quality discussion? That's one of the most bizarre rationalizations of rudeness I've ever seen, to be frank.

    Furthermore, let's ask for Boss and GIK's input as to whether they think snark should be a part of Redszone. Something telles me, they disagree strongly with that.
    "No matter how good you are, you're going to lose one-third of your games. No matter how bad you are you're going to win one-third of your games. It's the other third that makes the difference." ~Tommy Lasorda

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  14. #53
    Five Tool Fool jojo's Avatar
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    Re: What am I to make of some NL WAR leaders?

    Quote Originally Posted by Brutus View Post
    Is it really being argued that snide remarks toward other posters are necessary to have a high quality discussion? That's one of the most bizarre rationalizations of rudeness I've ever seen, to be frank.
    No one argued that strawman and frankly it's bizarre to have a dialog about what constitutes quality discussion with someone who so brazenly misrepresents an opposing view as in this particular strawman.

    Furthermore, let's ask for Boss and GIK's input as to whether they think snark should be a part of Redszone. Something telles me, they disagree strongly with that.
    They are more than welcome to offer their opinions. A fair survey of the archives will demonstrate a long standing culture of snark and no etablished poster can claim they have a posting history devoid of its use. But seriously, Brutus,you don't have the moral authority to lecture others on the issue of civility.
    "This isnít stats vs scouts - this is stats and scouts working together, building an organization that blends the best of both worlds. This is the blueprint for how a baseball organization should be run. And, whether the baseball men of the 20th century like it or not, this is where baseball is going."---Dave Cameron, U.S.S. Mariner

  15. #54
    Five Tool Fool jojo's Avatar
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    Re: What am I to make of some NL WAR leaders?

    Quote Originally Posted by Larkin Fan View Post
    I agree. And while I don't speak for them, I'd imagine two of those folks would be Boss and GIK since jojo's view of what defines "high quality discussion" is contrary to the very principles that this board was founded upon. I imagine that if this type of "high quality discussion" was what the masses truly wanted, Redszone would have never been formed and we'd all still be posting on Cincinnati.com.
    Search the archives concerning my stated definition of high quality discussion. You'll see it's very consistent with the mission statement.
    "This isnít stats vs scouts - this is stats and scouts working together, building an organization that blends the best of both worlds. This is the blueprint for how a baseball organization should be run. And, whether the baseball men of the 20th century like it or not, this is where baseball is going."---Dave Cameron, U.S.S. Mariner

  16. #55
    Oy Vey! Red in Chicago's Avatar
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    Re: What am I to make of some NL WAR leaders?

    oh dear god, make it stop

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  18. #56
    Five Tool Fool jojo's Avatar
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    Re: What am I to make of some NL WAR leaders?

    Quote Originally Posted by wolfboy View Post
    I think a lot of folks disagree with that.
    And examining the list of likes to your post demonstrates several posters who liberally use snark to make their points.....
    "This isnít stats vs scouts - this is stats and scouts working together, building an organization that blends the best of both worlds. This is the blueprint for how a baseball organization should be run. And, whether the baseball men of the 20th century like it or not, this is where baseball is going."---Dave Cameron, U.S.S. Mariner

  19. #57
    Et tu, Brutus? Brutus's Avatar
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    Re: What am I to make of some NL WAR leaders?

    Quote Originally Posted by jojo View Post
    No one argued that strawman and frankly it's bizarre to have a dialog about what constitutes quality discussion with someone who so brazenly misrepresents an opposing view as in this particular strawman.



    They are more than welcome to offer their opinions. A fair survey of the archives will demonstrate a long standing culture of snark and no etablished poster can claim they have a posting history devoid of its use. But seriously, Brutus,you don't have the moral authority to lecture others on the issue of civility.
    It's not a strawman. That is what you said word for word. You claimed that no "high-quality message board" would agree with my position that you can't use snark if you want to promote healthy discussion. Furtheremore, you stated it's a "valid" way of maintaining high quality. Those are your words directly.

    And yes, just like you, I've been guilty of snark; everyone has. The difference is, I'm not justifying it, nor are others, by saying it should be used and rationalize it as being a good thing for healthy discussion. And whether you think I have a moral authority or not is immaterial. I certainly can see a rude post when I see one, and several people saw that first response in the thread and said they believed it was rude and condescending.
    "No matter how good you are, you're going to lose one-third of your games. No matter how bad you are you're going to win one-third of your games. It's the other third that makes the difference." ~Tommy Lasorda

  20. #58
    Five Tool Fool jojo's Avatar
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    Re: What am I to make of some NL WAR leaders?

    Quote Originally Posted by Brutus View Post
    It's not a strawman. That is what you said word for word. You claimed that no "high-quality message board" would agree with my position that you can't use snark if you want to promote healthy discussion. Furtheremore, you stated it's a "valid" way of maintaining high quality. Those are your words directly.

    And yes, just like you, I've been guilty of snark; everyone has. The difference is, I'm not justifying it, nor are others, by saying it should be used and rationalize it as being a good thing for healthy discussion. And whether you think I have a moral authority or not is immaterial. I certainly can see a rude post when I see one, and several people saw that first response in the thread and said they believed it was rude and condescending.
    So where was the argument made that snark is NECESARY or high quality discussion? It is however a valid literary device that has evolved on the Internet to be something more than the limited definition of merely "snide". There is not a lengthy thread on Redszone that is devoid of the use of snark by longstanding members of the ORG many who can claim to be founding members of Redszone.
    Last edited by jojo; 08-10-2013 at 05:09 PM.
    "This isnít stats vs scouts - this is stats and scouts working together, building an organization that blends the best of both worlds. This is the blueprint for how a baseball organization should be run. And, whether the baseball men of the 20th century like it or not, this is where baseball is going."---Dave Cameron, U.S.S. Mariner

  21. #59
    5.3 Posts Abv Replacement BluegrassRedleg's Avatar
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    Re: What am I to make of some NL WAR leaders?

    It's jojo's shtick. I realize this is a message board and just baseball, so I don't let his pseudo-intellectual act affect me too much. All in good fun.

    I do, however, take exception to being labeled a "troll" or a "drive-by" poster. I've engaged in many topics here since joining RZ, and I've not done either of the things he's accused me of doing.

    I started this topic just a little before going to bed, and I've been too busy today to revisit it until now, so it's not a drive-by attempt. I started it after reading the Votto MVP discussion. I wanted to check WAR to see how closely he could wind up being considered because his traditional numbers (as we've discussed many times) may not be enough to gather most voters. When I checked the WAR leaders, I couldn't believe a couple of those guys were so high, even though they're having nice seasons.

    It's hard for me to gauge how much weight I should give it in the MVP discussion when you wind up with Gomez at No. 1 and Simmons and Marte that high.
    Rounding third and heading for home...

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  23. #60
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    Re: What am I to make of some NL WAR leaders?

    Quote Originally Posted by Red in Chicago View Post
    oh dear god, make it stop
    Good call
    When all is said and done more is said than done.

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