2013 EPL Thread

[Caveat Emperor]

Whoever made the decision at FOX to let Gus Johnson do soccer should be strapped to a rocket and fired into the sun.

[Yachtzee]

While the cover up is disgusting and the ineptitude of the people running the event is unquestionable, there is still the uncomfortable fact that you had a crowd of people who piled into a stadium and, when they ran into a wall of people, started pushing. I've been in crowds where that's happened. It's scary and there's a lot of idiots in the back making it happen. How drunk were they? I don't know, but football fans aren't known their sobriety. As horribly planned as the event was and even with all the tragic decisions that were made leading up to the crush (none of which were the fans' fault), this doesn't happen with an opera crowd.

So I absolutely think Liverpool fans and the families of the victims (because those people most certainly were victims), deserve the truth and that the authorities should be held accountable, most specifically for the cover up. Yet Liverpool fans have not admitted that the pile of Liverpool fans pushing from the back like that had no consequences also led directly to those tragic deaths.

I don't think it was simply people pushing from the back that caused the crush. Two big factors that lead to the crush were the design of the stadium and the inexperience of the head of the local police in handling large crowds at Hillsborough. The design of the stadium resulted in all of the Liverpool fans being funneled through one set of turnstiles. Once they got through, there was a large tunnel that lead to the stamding terraces. What you couldn't see from that end was that the standing terraces were divided into pens separated by six foot fences with spikes on top. The tunnel was just the entry to the middle pen, whereas the entrances to the side pens were hidden around corners. The chief constable, or whatever his title was, was in a booth overlooking the pens, with cameras directed at the turnstiles outside. The chief saw the huge amount of fans with tickets trying to get in as kickoff started. Rather than requesting a delay in the kickoff to get the fans in, he said nothing to the officials. Instead he told police officers to open an exit gate to let more people in. The exit gate lead directly to the main tunnel. As the middle pen started getting full, he could have had officers block the entrance to the middle pen and direct fans to the sparsely occupied side pens. However, he froze and did nothing. When it became apparent that people were in trouble, he lied to the FA man telling him drunken fans had forced open the outside gate when he had really ordered it to be opened.

While I'm sure there was some pushing on the part of fans trying to get to the terraces as the game was starting, I think the bigger issue was fans in the middle getting to the front of the tunnel-back of the terraces and trying to squeeze in. Before pens were put in, the terraces were one, big, open area where fans could move freely to the sides of the terraces to relieve the pressure. Some of the fans who were there said they tried to move to the side, but they found they were blocked in by fences and, when they tried to move back, others had already moved into the space they had vacated, effectively packing them in like sardines.

[M2]

I don't think it was simply people pushing from the back that caused the crush. Two big factors that lead to the crush were the design of the stadium and the inexperience of the head of the local police in handling large crowds at Hillsborough. The design of the stadium resulted in all of the Liverpool fans being funneled through one set of turnstiles. Once they got through, there was a large tunnel that lead to the stamding terraces. What you couldn't see from that end was that the standing terraces were divided into pens separated by six foot fences with spikes on top. The tunnel was just the entry to the middle pen, whereas the entrances to the side pens were hidden around corners. The chief constable, or whatever his title was, was in a booth overlooking the pens, with cameras directed at the turnstiles outside. The chief saw the huge amount of fans with tickets trying to get in as kickoff started. Rather than requesting a delay in the kickoff to get the fans in, he said nothing to the officials. Instead he told police officers to open an exit gate to let more people in. The exit gate lead directly to the main tunnel. As the middle pen started getting full, he could have had officers block the entrance to the middle pen and direct fans to the sparsely occupied side pens. However, he froze and did nothing. When it became apparent that people were in trouble, he lied to the FA man telling him drunken fans had forced open the outside gate when he had really ordered it to be opened.

While I'm sure there was some pushing on the part of fans trying to get to the terraces as the game was starting, I think the bigger issue was fans in the middle getting to the front of the tunnel-back of the terraces and trying to squeeze in. Before pens were put in, the terraces were one, big, open area where fans could move freely to the sides of the terraces to relieve the pressure. Some of the fans who were there said they tried to move to the side, but they found they were blocked in by fences and, when they tried to move back, others had already moved into the space they had vacated, effectively packing them in like sardines.

Oh, there were definitely structural and crowd management issues that funneled everyone into those pens. They were trying to squeeze more people into the pens than could fit. However, instead of stopping when they hit a wall of people in front of them, the fans continued to push forward. The authorities created the mortar, but the fans proved to be the pestle. Whether it was an otherwise docile crowd mindlessly pushing forward or a largely drunken mob pushing forward without regard for the consequences, there's a large number of Liverpool fans who kept jamming forward that day who also were part of what killed the 96. It took the collision of a lot of factors to make Hillsborough happen. The authorities deserve every ounce of reprobation they get for trying to lay the entirety of the blame at the feet of the fans and footballing culture. However, while I agree the majority of the blame rests with the authorities, the fans who kept pushing against a wall of people also played a horrific role in this tragedy. Booze trains and a mindset that the authorities need to handle you because you can't be bothered or expected to handle yourself (which was pervasive in football culture at that time) surely didn't help.

[improbus]

Oh, there were definitely structural and crowd management issues that funneled everyone into those pens. They were trying to squeeze more people into the pens than could fit. However, instead of stopping when they hit a wall of people in front of them, the fans continued to push forward. The authorities created the mortar, but the fans proved to be the pestle. Whether it was an otherwise docile crowd mindlessly pushing forward or a largely drunken mob pushing forward without regard for the consequences, there's a large number of Liverpool fans who kept jamming forward that day who also were part of what killed the 96. It took the collision of a lot of factors to make Hillsborough happen. The authorities deserve every ounce of reprobation they get for trying to lay the entirety of the blame at the feet of the fans and footballing culture. However, while I agree the majority of the blame rests with the authorities, the fans who kept pushing against a wall of people also played a horrific role in this tragedy. Booze trains and a mindset that the authorities need to handle you because you can't be bothered or expected to handle yourself (which was pervasive in football culture at that time) surely didn't help.

This makes sense in hindsight, but everything I've read about that era of English soccer points to those packed in crowds being a normal situation. I would guess that those Liverpool fans coming into the tunnel had done the exact same thing many, many times, so I find it really tough to fault them. The other important point to note was that a similar situation happened in 1981. The team, local police force, and FA should have done something to make sure that it never happened again.

[M2]

This makes sense in hindsight, but everything I've read about that era of English soccer points to those packed in crowds being a normal situation. I would guess that those Liverpool fans coming into the tunnel had done the exact same thing many, many times, so I find it really tough to fault them. The other important point to note was that a similar situation happened in 1981. The team, local police force, and FA should have done something to make sure that it never happened again.

That's true, the crowds were consistently out of hand in that era. Liverpool was a particularly unruly mob. The constables in Sheffield clearly weren't prepared for what descended upon them that day, and that wasn't even Liverpool on bad behavior. Sad to say that something like this was inevitable, but it was. At some point, inadequate stadiums, overmatched security and uncontrollable crowds were going to result in tragedy.

In terms of warnings, there was also Heysel in 1985 (which is why many Juventus fans have a decidedly morbid take on Hillsborough).

[hebroncougar]

Let's go Reds! Whip the Blues tomorrow!

[OldRightHander]

Let's go Reds! Whip the Blues tomorrow!

It could be a tough game, or it could be a repeat of Arsenal at home. I'm hoping for the latter. Now here's my dilemma. The game comes on at 9:00 and I have to leave for church around 10:15. Do I watch the first half at home and DVR the second half to watch when I get home, or do I DVR the entire game and just stay off the internet until I can get home and watch the whole thing?

[sonny]

It could be a tough game, or it could be a repeat of Arsenal at home. I'm hoping for the latter. Now here's my dilemma. The game comes on at 9:00 and I have to leave for church around 10:15. Do I watch the first half at home and DVR the second half to watch when I get home, or do I DVR the entire game and just stay off the internet until I can get home and watch the whole thing?

Watch the whole thing. You don't want to wonder how the 2nd half plays out while the sermon is going on.

[OldRightHander]

Watch the whole thing. You don't want to wonder how the 2nd half plays out while the sermon is going on.

I'm one of the musicians, so skipping the service probably isn't an option. I have to either watch the entire game on DVR after church, or watch the second half on DVR. I think I'm going to watch the first half at home before the service so I'll have more of my day free after.

[Caveat Emperor]

Come on Chelsea -- Keep the Blue flag flying high!

[BuckeyeRed27]

This EPL season has been pretty amazing. I have followed it pretty closely now for about 12 years and I don't remember this many twists and turns.

[hebroncougar]

Grrrrrrr, missed the game for church. I kept up occasionally on my phone. Once it got deep into the first half 0-0 I kind of figured Liverpool was in trouble.

[Caveat Emperor]

Carefree, baby!

[M2]

Everton fans find themselves in an uncomfortable situation. Technically the club still has a chance to slip into the top four if Arsenal slips up, which isn't terribly likely. If not, then a Europa League slot is all but assured. The team hosts Man City next week. If City wins out for the rest of the season, it will finish ahead of Liverpool for the title. The only thing Everton fans feel that rivals their love for the Toffees is their hatred for Liverpool. So do they secretly want their team to lose to City so that they don't have to hear about how Liverpool finally won the EPL for the rest of eternity? Schadenfreude might prevail on this one.

[Tracy Jones]

Everton fans find themselves in an uncomfortable situation. Technically the club still has a chance to slip into the top four if Arsenal slips up, which isn't terribly likely. If not, then a Europa League slot is all but assured. The team hosts Man City next week. If City wins out for the rest of the season, it will finish ahead of Liverpool for the title. The only thing Everton fans feel that rivals their love for the Toffees is their hatred for Liverpool. So do they secretly want their team to lose to City so that they don't have to hear about how Liverpool finally won the EPL for the rest of eternity? Schadenfreude might prevail on this one.

I'll be surprised if City doesn't win out. Everton has terrible lately, outside of the United match.

But the way this season has gone? Means City will lose to Everton, Liverpool will lose to Palace and Chelsea will win out and take the title.