Turn Off Ads?
Page 1 of 2 12 LastLast
Results 1 to 15 of 16

Thread: Starting Pitching Historically Good?

  1. #1
    Member
    Join Date
    Jun 2001
    Posts
    10,069

    Starting Pitching Historically Good?

    Hypothetically, if Bronson Arroyo follows up today's effort with two more shutouts, would the Reds be the first team in the modern era to have four starting pitchers with ERA under 3?

    Even if he doesn't, has a team in the last 50 years even had 3 starting pitchers with an ERA under 3 as they do now (well, Latos is 3.04)?

    Should this team be considered to have top to bottom one of the best starting rotations in the history of the game?
    Go BLUE!!!

  2. Turn Off Ads?
  3. #2
    breath westofyou's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2000
    Location
    PDX
    Posts
    43,275

    Re: Starting Pitching Historically Good?

    Currently the NL ERA is 4.08

    Here are the Reds pitchers in the last 50 years who had 20 starts, 130 IP and an ERA one run better than the league

    Code:
    ERA >= 1 vs. the league average
    GAMES STARTED >= 20
    RSAA displayed only--not a sorting criteria
    
    ERA                           YEAR     ERA      ERA      GS      RSAA    
    1    Gary Nolan               1972     1.99     1.46       25       23   
    2    Johnny Cueto             2011     2.31     1.51       24       29   
    3    Tom Seaver               1977     2.34     1.57       20       29   
    4    Don Gullett              1975     2.42     1.21       22       23   
    5    Jose Rijo                1993     2.48     1.56       36       44   
    6    Jose Rijo                1991     2.51     1.18       30       35   
    7    Jose Rijo                1990     2.70     1.10       29       24   
    8    Johnny Cueto             2012     2.78     1.17       33       34   
    9    Bob Purkey               1962     2.81     1.13       37       37   
    10   Wayne Simpson            1970     3.02     1.04       26       23   
    11   Elmer Dessens            2002     3.03     1.08       30       28   
    12   Jose Rijo                1994     3.08     1.14       26       22   
    13   Pete Harnisch            1998     3.14     1.09       32       27   
    14   Edinson Volquez          2008     3.21     1.08       32       26   
    15   Bronson Arroyo           2006     3.29     1.20       35       41

    For giggles here's the Dodgers

    Code:
    ERA                           YEAR     ERA      ERA      GS      RSAA    
    1    Sandy Koufax             1966     1.73     1.88       41       58   
    2    Sandy Koufax             1964     1.74     1.80       28       35   
    3    Sandy Koufax             1963     1.88     1.41       40       40   
    4    Orel Hershiser           1985     2.03     1.57       34       33   
    5    Sandy Koufax             1965     2.04     1.50       41       40   
    6    Don Sutton               1972     2.08     1.38       33       33   
    7    Don Drysdale             1964     2.19     1.35       40       34   
    8    Don Sutton               1980     2.20     1.40       31       29   
    9    Orel Hershiser           1988     2.26     1.20       34       40   
    10   Clayton Kershaw          2011     2.28     1.54       33       36   
    11   Burt Hooton              1981     2.28     1.22       23       17   
    12   Andy Messersmith         1975     2.29     1.34       40       38   
    13   Jerry Reuss              1981     2.30     1.19       22       18   
    14   Bob Welch                1985     2.31     1.29       23       18   
    15   Orel Hershiser           1989     2.31     1.19       33       25   
    16   Bill Singer              1969     2.34     1.26       40       41   
    17   Kevin Brown              2003     2.39     1.90       32       38   
    18   Don Sutton               1973     2.42     1.25       33       33   
    19   Fernando Valenzuela      1985     2.45     1.15       35       25   
    20   Fernando Valenzuela      1981     2.48     1.01       25       18   
    21   Alejandro Pena           1984     2.48     1.11       28       27   
    22   Jerry Reuss              1980     2.51     1.10       29       23   
    23   Clayton Kershaw          2012     2.53     1.42       33       29   
    24   Hideo Nomo               1995     2.54     1.64       28       26   
    25   Sandy Koufax             1962     2.54     1.40       26       21   
    26   Kevin Brown              2000     2.58     2.05       33       43   
    27   Tommy John               1974     2.59     1.04       22       12   
    28   Andy Messersmith         1974     2.59     1.04       39       22   
    29   Burt Hooton              1977     2.62     1.29       31       30   
    30   Tim Belcher              1991     2.62     1.06       33       26   
    31   Ismael Valdes            1997     2.65     1.55       30       26   
    32   Tommy John               1977     2.78     1.14       31       25   
    33   Clayton Kershaw          2009     2.79     1.41       30       21   
    34   Don Drysdale             1962     2.84     1.10       41       26   
    35   Clayton Kershaw          2010     2.91     1.12       32       23   
    36   Odalis Perez             2002     3.00     1.12       32       18   
    37   Kevin Brown              1999     3.00     1.57       35       40   
    38   Brad Penny               2007     3.03     1.41       33       35   
    39   Ismael Valdes            1995     3.05     1.13       27       16   
    40   Orel Hershiser           1987     3.06     1.03       35       19   
    41   Hideo Nomo               2003     3.09     1.19       33       22   
    42   Chad Billingsley         2008     3.14     1.16       32       18   
    43   Hideo Nomo               1996     3.19     1.03       33       15   
    44   Derek Lowe               2008     3.24     1.05       34       16   
    45   Odalis Perez             2004     3.25     1.06       31       19   
    46   Chan Ho Park             2000     3.27     1.37       34       25   
    47   Chad Billingsley         2007     3.31     1.13       20       21

  4. Likes:

    BluegrassRedleg (08-15-2013), Fil3232 (08-14-2013)

  5. #3
    On the brink wolfboy's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2002
    Location
    is everything
    Posts
    2,687

    Re: Starting Pitching Historically Good?

    Quote Originally Posted by Benihana View Post
    Hypothetically, if Bronson Arroyo follows up today's effort with two more shutouts, would the Reds be the first team in the modern era to have four starting pitchers with ERA under 3?

    Even if he doesn't, has a team in the last 50 years even had 3 starting pitchers with an ERA under 3 as they do now (well, Latos is 3.04)?

    Should this team be considered to have top to bottom one of the best starting rotations in the history of the game?
    '68 Cardinals had four guys with at least 30 starts and an ERA under 3. Of course, one of those guys also sported an ERA well under 2.

    EDIT: The '97 Braves came awful close as well: Maddux, Smoltz, Glavine, & Neagle were one heck of a 1-4 and all 4 just barely missed the under 3 ERA criteria. Smoltz had a 3.02.
    Last edited by wolfboy; 08-14-2013 at 06:30 PM.
    How do we know he's not Mel Torme?

  6. Likes:

    LexRedsFan (08-15-2013)

  7. #4
    Member
    Join Date
    Jul 2007
    Posts
    4,712

    Re: Starting Pitching Historically Good?

    At quick glance, the Giants of 2011 had 3 starters under 3.00: Vogelsong 2.71, Lincecum 2.74, Cain 2.88. Lincecum and Cain were well over 200 innings, and Vogelsong had 179.2.

    Also, Bumgarner had a 3.21 in 204.2 IP.

  8. #5
    breath westofyou's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2000
    Location
    PDX
    Posts
    43,275

    Re: Starting Pitching Historically Good?

    Quote Originally Posted by wolfboy View Post
    '68 Cardinals had four guys with at least 30 starts and an ERA under 3. Of course, one of those guys also sported an ERA well under 2.
    The league was at 2.99 though too

  9. Likes:

    RedlegJake (08-14-2013)

  10. #6
    Member
    Join Date
    Jul 2007
    Posts
    4,712

    Re: Starting Pitching Historically Good?

    The 2011 Phillies had Halladay at 2.35, Lee at 2.40, and Hamels at 2.79. Their fifth starter (Oswalt, 3.69, was the fourth) was Vance Worley, with 21 starts and 131.2 IP, and he finished at 3.01.
    Last edited by mace; 08-14-2013 at 06:54 PM.

  11. #7
    Member
    Join Date
    Jun 2001
    Posts
    10,069

    Re: Starting Pitching Historically Good?

    So we're accepting/agreeing that this Reds team is at least one of the 3 best* top-to-bottom rotations of the last 15 years? Maybe the last 45 years? That's pretty damn impressive- especially when you consider they've done it without their Opening Day starter/proven ace!


    *Along with the 2011 Phillies and Giants
    Go BLUE!!!

  12. #8
    On the brink wolfboy's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2002
    Location
    is everything
    Posts
    2,687

    Re: Starting Pitching Historically Good?

    Quote Originally Posted by Benihana View Post
    So we're accepting/agreeing that this Reds team is at least one of the 3 best* top-to-bottom rotations of the last 15 years? Maybe the last 45 years? That's pretty damn impressive- especially when you consider they've done it without their Opening Day starter/proven ace!


    *Along with the 2011 Phillies and Giants
    I would probably take any of the mid 90s Braves rotations over this one or the 2011 Giants/Phillies. Maddux, Smoltz, Glavine with the occasional Neagle or Avery.
    How do we know he's not Mel Torme?

  13. #9
    The Big Dog mth123's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2006
    Posts
    14,992

    Re: Starting Pitching Historically Good?

    72 A's. Hunter (2.04), Holtzman (2.51), Odom (2.50), Blue (2.80), Dave Hamilton (2.94). Not sure this is as impressive as it looks. Hamilton's ERA+ was actually a slightly below average 98. Blue (23) and Hamilton (14) both had less than 30 starts.
    "All I can tell them is pick a good one and sock it." --BABE RUTH

    Having better players makes "the right time" or "the big hit" happen a lot more often. PLUS PLUS

  14. #10
    5.3 Posts Abv Replacement BluegrassRedleg's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2008
    Location
    South of Cincinnati
    Posts
    2,250

    Re: Starting Pitching Historically Good?

    All I know is this team's starters 1-5 are unprecedented in my lifetime. (Born in '71)
    Rounding third and heading for home...

  15. Likes:

    Benihana (08-16-2013), wlf WV (08-16-2013)

  16. #11
    Five Tool Fool jojo's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2006
    Posts
    19,134

    Re: Starting Pitching Historically Good?

    Here's some context for the playoffs:

    Ranking starting rotations by either ERA or FIP results in a list where the Reds, Detroit, St Louis, LA Dodgers, Atlanta, and Pittsburgh are in the top 7 (not listed by order) with very little separating these staffs by the numbers.

    The playoffs promise to have alot of very tight, low scoring games, especially on the NL side.
    "This isnít stats vs scouts - this is stats and scouts working together, building an organization that blends the best of both worlds. This is the blueprint for how a baseball organization should be run. And, whether the baseball men of the 20th century like it or not, this is where baseball is going."---Dave Cameron, U.S.S. Mariner

  17. #12
    Worst Behavior. reds44's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2003
    Location
    North Carolina
    Posts
    25,481

    Re: Starting Pitching Historically Good?

    The pitching staff is absurd. I've almost adopted a soccer like menatlity with this team lately. When Votto went yard to go up 2-1 (in the 6th!!) I felt confident it would be enough.
    Quote Originally Posted by PuffyPig View Post
    Let's face it, you mis-hit the bun with the mustard squirter, no one will really care.

  18. #13
    Haunted by walks
    Join Date
    Apr 2000
    Location
    Syracuse
    Posts
    6,732

    Re: Starting Pitching Historically Good?

    Thanks, Walt.

  19. Likes:

    mdccclxix (08-16-2013)

  20. #14
    Member cumberlandreds's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2003
    Location
    Sterling VA
    Posts
    9,461

    Re: Starting Pitching Historically Good?

    Quote Originally Posted by BluegrassRedleg View Post
    All I know is this team's starters 1-5 are unprecedented in my lifetime. (Born in '71)
    Same for me. I go back to 71 as a Reds fan and they have never had this type of starting pitching.
    Reds Fan Since 1971

  21. Likes:

    Always Red (08-16-2013), wlf WV (08-16-2013)

  22. #15
    Member wlf WV's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2008
    Location
    huntington,wv
    Posts
    608

    Re: Starting Pitching Historically Good?

    I hope we keep the persons responsible in this organization.I believe it is an organizational thing, as evidenced by WOYs Dodger comparison.
    May the Lord bless


Turn Off Ads?

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •  

Board Moderators may, at their discretion and judgment, delete and/or edit any messages that violate any of the following guidelines: 1. Explicit references to alleged illegal or unlawful acts. 2. Graphic sexual descriptions. 3. Racial or ethnic slurs. 4. Use of edgy language (including masked profanity). 5. Direct personal attacks, flames, fights, trolling, baiting, name-calling, general nuisance, excessive player criticism or anything along those lines. 6. Posting spam. 7. Each person may have only one user account. It is fine to be critical here - that's what this board is for. But let's not beat a subject or a player to death, please.

Thank you, and most importantly, enjoy yourselves!


RedsZone.com is a privately owned website and is not affiliated with the Cincinnati Reds or Major League Baseball


Contact us: Boss | GIK | BCubb2003 | dabvu2498 | Gallen5862 | LexRedsFan | Plus Plus | RedlegJake | redsfan1995 | The Operator | Tommyjohn25