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Thread: SEC Football discussion thread #2

  1. #751
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    Re: SEC Football discussion thread #2

    Quote Originally Posted by Brutus View Post
    I didn't move any goalposts. I merely expanded....
    Ok. As long as the goal posts were merely expanded but not moved....

    Quote Originally Posted by Brutus View Post
    You were the one trying to act like Ohio State was on a "rapid decline" just because it only had one title recently.
    What I did was logically extend your argument. You responded by moving, errr..."expanding" the goal posts.
    "This isnít stats vs scouts - this is stats and scouts working together, building an organization that blends the best of both worlds. This is the blueprint for how a baseball organization should be run. And, whether the baseball men of the 20th century like it or not, this is where baseball is going."---Dave Cameron, U.S.S. Mariner

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  3. #752
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    Re: SEC Football discussion thread #2

    Quote Originally Posted by jojo View Post
    Ok. As long as the goal posts were merely expanded but not moved....



    What I did was logically extend your argument. You responded by moving, errr..."expanding" the goal posts.
    I assumed it was common sense that no argument is valid that suggests a program is in "rapid decline" when literally it possesses more BCS appearances and victories than any other program in the most recent 15 seasons.

    Sorry but I didn't move the goal posts. I was merely responding to an utterly absurd synopsis with a very relevant, factual point.

    It should not have been concluded that because I didn't outright mention BCS in my first post that therefore it was purposely excluded from consideration.
    "No matter how good you are, you're going to lose one-third of your games. No matter how bad you are you're going to win one-third of your games. It's the other third that makes the difference." ~Tommy Lasorda

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  5. #753
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    Re: SEC Football discussion thread #2

    Quote Originally Posted by Brutus View Post
    Sorry but I didn't move the goal posts. I was merely responding to an utterly absurd synopsis.
    You responded to the logical extension of your own argument.

    Quote Originally Posted by Brutus View Post
    It should not have been concluded that because I didn't outright mention BCS in my first post that therefore it was purposely excluded from consideration.
    And it shouldn't have been assumed that you argued something that you didn't.

    And for the record:

    SEC in BCS games: 17-9.

    Big Ten: 14-15.

    Also as to the suggestion that the SEC is largely a bunch of "hangers ons" because LSU then Florida and then Alabama won a series of National championships, if that is really the argument that defines conference strength then the Big Ten is in serious trouble. BTW, the SEC Gators have just completed a four year run where they've averaged over 5 losses a season. I only offer this as an out to allow Big Ten fan to back down gracefully from that argument.
    "This isnít stats vs scouts - this is stats and scouts working together, building an organization that blends the best of both worlds. This is the blueprint for how a baseball organization should be run. And, whether the baseball men of the 20th century like it or not, this is where baseball is going."---Dave Cameron, U.S.S. Mariner

  6. #754
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    Re: SEC Football discussion thread #2

    Proletariats and Bammers rise!

    http://www.change.org/petitions/ncaa...iron-bowl-2013

    Quote Originally Posted by petition;

    To:
    Chris Davis was clearly out of bounds. Make this right for everyone and play overtime from the Iron Bowl 2013

    Sincerely,
    [Your name]
    "This isnít stats vs scouts - this is stats and scouts working together, building an organization that blends the best of both worlds. This is the blueprint for how a baseball organization should be run. And, whether the baseball men of the 20th century like it or not, this is where baseball is going."---Dave Cameron, U.S.S. Mariner

  7. #755
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    Re: SEC Football discussion thread #2

    Quote Originally Posted by jojo View Post
    I don't glean too much from that picture, but have to ask, was a good angle ever shown of whether or not he was out...they typically only are showing the end zone view which is inconclusive to me? I found it surprising in the madness they didn't seem to take a big look at it, refs or tv crew.

  8. #756
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    Re: SEC Football discussion thread #2

    Quote Originally Posted by kaldaniels View Post
    I don't glean too much from that picture, but have to ask, was a good angle ever shown of whether or not he was out...they typically only are showing the end zone view which is inconclusive to me? I found it surprising in the madness they didn't seem to take a big look at it, refs or tv crew.
    He was pretty clearly in bounds. There are camera angles looking directly down the line both from behind Davis and from in front of Davis. This clearly would've been reviewed ad naseum by the replay booth too and to suggest the replay official wasn't gun shy during this game is an understatement which makes the petition all the more ironic given this play was the direct result of a replay overturning an out of bounds call.

    I think that's the petition author's schtick and why it was funny before people started taking it seriously...
    "This isnít stats vs scouts - this is stats and scouts working together, building an organization that blends the best of both worlds. This is the blueprint for how a baseball organization should be run. And, whether the baseball men of the 20th century like it or not, this is where baseball is going."---Dave Cameron, U.S.S. Mariner

  9. #757
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    Re: SEC Football discussion thread #2

    Quote Originally Posted by jojo View Post
    And FSU vs Florida is the greatest rivalry and most popular nationally because since 1982, the combined National championships between the two dwarf OSU and Michigan while their winning percentages (FSU and Florida) rank 3rd and 5th... Auburn by the way is tenth. No one has probably even heard of them.
    FSU/UF hasn't meant a thing since 2000 with the exception of maybe last year. A lot of UF fans would even say Georgia (and some old timers would say Tennessee) is their biggest rival. FSU was simply terrible from 2001-2011 and Florida's meltdown made this year's game irrelevant. FSU/UF was on ESPN while UM/OSU was on the big boy network. Check the national ratings on the two rivalries in the last 15 years and I guarantee you it isn't even close. I'd be willing to bet the ratings in the Miami, Ft Myers and Tampa markets might even be as high or higher for OSU/Michigan. When HBO runs a UF/FSU rivalry production let me know.

    Having lived in both places for an extending period, FSU/UF is intense but not even close to OSU/Michigan. Florida has too many Northern and International transplants who couldn't care less about either school. Probably a different feel in Northern and Central Florida, but I can tell you that FSU/UF barely moves the needle in the Southern part of the state. It's almost a non-event.

    Having relatives from Alabama, the Iron Bowl is flat out crazy, but that is definitely more of a regional game since Bama is such a small state. Although this weekend's insanity may change that going forward. I will confess I didn't realize Auburn was so historically competitive with Alabama until I just looked it up (42-35-1). That's the basis for a great rivalry, nearly a 50/50 split over the decades.

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    Re: SEC Football discussion thread #2

    Quote Originally Posted by jojo View Post
    You responded to the logical extension of your own argument.



    And it shouldn't have been assumed that you argued something that you didn't.

    And for the record:

    SEC in BCS games: 17-9.

    Big Ten: 14-15.

    Also as to the suggestion that the SEC is largely a bunch of "hangers ons" because LSU then Florida and then Alabama won a series of National championships, if that is really the argument that defines conference strength then the Big Ten is in serious trouble. BTW, the SEC Gators have just completed a four year run where they've averaged over 5 losses a season. I only offer this as an out to allow Big Ten fan to back down gracefully from that argument.
    Stay with me. Correct, when no Spurrier and no Meyer, Florida has been surprisngly average as a program. It's all about coaching.

    SEC has been the dominant conference since 2003 there is no arguing that point. As a result, a 1-loss SEC team has been given the benefit of the doubt over any other conferences one loss team in the BCS. This is entirely due to the fact that Nick Saban and Urban Meyer have owned the SEC conference and the Crystal Ball over the last decade -- Easily the two best program building coaches in the country. Tressel and Carroll are close. (Tressel's 10-year run at OSU was actually quite spectacular). Saban and Meyer have delivered all but 2 (maybe 1 if you count LSU 2007 as Saban's recruits) SEC championships since 1998. Only the Cam Newton championship didn't have Saban/Meyer's fingerprints all over them (well actually Meyer did, but lets not go there...)

    The SEC is simply not as deep this season as in year's past. When middle of the pack Big 12 team Missouri makes your championship game in year 2 after fellow mediocre Big 12 refugee A&M was the shiny new SEC toy last season in year 1 -- then the overall depth of the conference is overstated beyond Saban and Meyer. Actually I thought the Big Ten should have taken Missouri but that's a tangent.

    Listening to anyone from Miss, Miss State, Arkansas, Vanderbilt, Kentucky, Tennessee, South Carolina or Georgia ever talk crap about OSU is beyond funny. Those are the hanger on wanna be fanbases to the Floridas, Alabamas and LSUs recent success.

    I would consider Auburn as easily the solid #4 program in the SEC over the past decade, probably closer to #3 now with the Mad Hatter entrenched at LSU without Saban's recruits.

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  12. #759
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    Re: SEC Football discussion thread #2

    Meyer/Saban: 8-1 rest of SEC 9-8 (coaching, coaching, coaching)

    ACC 3-13 (Va Tech, Cincinnati, Northern Illinois - those are the three schools the ACC has beaten in BCS games since inception). This is the laughing stock football "power" conference.

    Big 12 9-11 (Okie 3-5)

    Big East is a surprising 8-7 (3-1 from Miami and 3-0 from WVU)

    Pac 10: 13-7 (6-1 with Carroll/USC)

    Big Ten has been average in the BCS games although OSU has kept the B1G overall close to 500. A few of those games were complete mismatches when the Rose Bowl took an undeserving B1G team (Illinois) due to OSU being selected into the Championship game. The SEC and B1G almost always get two teams in the BCS every year while many of the others just get the conference champ. With almost all of those Big Ten BCS games being games played in "neutral" enemy territory in Pasadena, New Orleans and Miami.

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  14. #760
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    Re: SEC Football discussion thread #2

    Quote Originally Posted by oregonred View Post
    Meyer/Saban: 8-1 rest of SEC 9-8 (coaching, coaching, coaching)
    OSU: 6-3 rest of Big 10:6-11

    Big Ten has been average in the BCS games although OSU has kept the B1G overall close to 500. A few of those games were complete mismatches when the Rose Bowl took an undeserving B1G team (Illinois) due to OSU being selected into the Championship game. The SEC and B1G almost always get two teams in the BCS every year while many of the others just get the conference champ. With almost all of those Big Ten BCS games being games played in "neutral" enemy territory in Pasadena, New Orleans and Miami.
    So the Big 10 is good, but their #2 team didn't deserve a BCS berth? I'm struggling with that concept.
    When all is said and done more is said than done.

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    Re: SEC Football discussion thread #2

    Quote Originally Posted by jojo View Post
    You responded to the logical extension of your own argument.



    And it shouldn't have been assumed that you argued something that you didn't.

    And for the record:

    SEC in BCS games: 17-9.

    Big Ten: 14-15.

    Also as to the suggestion that the SEC is largely a bunch of "hangers ons" because LSU then Florida and then Alabama won a series of National championships, if that is really the argument that defines conference strength then the Big Ten is in serious trouble. BTW, the SEC Gators have just completed a four year run where they've averaged over 5 losses a season. I only offer this as an out to allow Big Ten fan to back down gracefully from that argument.
    Correction.... the Big Ten is 13-15 in BCS games...OSU is only 6-3.
    "This isnít stats vs scouts - this is stats and scouts working together, building an organization that blends the best of both worlds. This is the blueprint for how a baseball organization should be run. And, whether the baseball men of the 20th century like it or not, this is where baseball is going."---Dave Cameron, U.S.S. Mariner

  16. #762
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    Re: SEC Football discussion thread #2

    Quote Originally Posted by oregonred View Post
    Big East is a surprising 8-7 (3-1 from Miami and 3-0 from WVU)
    Don't forget the 2-0 from Louisville.

  17. #763
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    Re: SEC Football discussion thread #2

    Yes, Lville opened a can last season vs. the Gators. That was a fun one.

    To address the above. Outside OSU at 6-3, the Big Ten has not been good in BCS games and in a few seasons didn't deserve a 2nd team in the BCS games. Since the B1G travels like no other conference to bowls they are always an attractive option even in some years when they were not deserving (Illinois in the Rose Bowl was a joke) or overseeded vs. a much better on paper Top 5 rated BCS opponent. The Rose Bowl always takes Big Ten/Pac Ten if the rules allow. The Bowl games are a revenue grab not a fairness doctrine.

    I don't have the data but would suspect the Big Ten team has been an underdog in at least 70% of the BCS matchups. I believe OSU alone has won four BCS games while the underdog (Canes, K-State, Oregon) and lost one as the favorite to UF in the game everyone remembers. Most of the talking heads would probably be stunned to hear the fact that OSU is 3-1 in BCS games as an underdog.

    The BCS slots are watered down now with a 5th game, but when there were only four BCS games and 8 slots for the 6 conference champions it was almost always the SEC and Big Ten getting the two at large berths. SEC and Big Ten have had two teams chosen in all but ~2 years of the BCS. Ironically, outside OSU the Big Ten has done surprisingly well head to head vs the SEC in the other Bowl games since the BCS started.

    Again the SEC has been the best CFB conference in the last decade. That's not arguable. At least in 2013 the conference is down vs. recent years and has substantially been overrated by the ESPN-driven ranking machine from preseason onward.

    Pac-12, SEC, Big 12 or Big Ten and ACC last is how I'd rate them so far in 2013. Big Ten's top three teams slightly better than Big 12's top teams, with the bottom feeders in the Big Ten being terrible.
    Last edited by oregonred; 12-03-2013 at 10:05 AM.

  18. #764
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    Re: SEC Football discussion thread #2

    Quote Originally Posted by oregonred View Post
    Yes, Lville opened a can last season vs. the Gators. That was a fun one.

    To address the above. Outside OSU at 6-3, the Big Ten has not been good in BCS games and in a few seasons didn't deserve a 2nd team in the BCS games. Since the B1G travels like no other conference to bowls they are always an attractive option even in some years when they were not deserving (Illinois in the Rose Bowl was a joke) or overseeded vs. a much better on paper Top 5 rated BCS opponent. The Rose Bowl always takes Big Ten/Pac Ten if the rules allow. The Bowl games are a revenue grab not a fairness doctrine.

    I don't have the data but would suspect the Big Ten team has been an underdog in at least 70% of the BCS matchups. I believe OSU alone has won four BCS games while the underdog (Canes, K-State, Oregon and Arkansas) and lost one as the favorite to UF in the game everyone remembers. Most of the talking heads would probably be stunned to hear the fact that OSU is 4-1 in BCS games as an underdog.

    The BCS slots are watered down now with a 5th game, but when there were only four BCS games and 8 slots for the 6 conference champions it was almost always the SEC and Big Ten getting the two at large berths. SEC and Big Ten have had two teams chosen in all but ~2 years of the BCS. Ironically, outside OSU the Big Ten has done surprisingly well head to head vs the SEC in the other Bowl games since the BCS started.

    Again the SEC has been the best CFB conference in the last decade. That's not arguable. At least in 2013 the conference is down vs. recent years and has substantially been overrated in the ESPN driven ranking machine from preseason onward.

    Pac-12, SEC, Big 12 or Big Ten and ACC last is how I'd rate them so far in 2013. Big Ten's top three teams slightly better than Big 12's top teams, with the bottom feeders in the Big Ten being terrible.
    I agree that the SEC is down but a few points though... they're down because the NFL raided what wouldve been exceptional senior classes at multiple schools (LSU essentially lost their senior starting class) and there have been a historic number of injuries to top tier skill players at several programs. Despite all of this, the SEC is still a stronger conference than the Big Ten and the gap is signficant. Forget the reasons for the SEC being a bit down, it's immaterial to the notion that a 1 loss SEC champion has a better resume than an undefeated Big Ten champion due to the gap in strength that still exists between the two conferences. I understand why Buckeye fan wants to claim going undeafeated trumps all but clearly even Meyer doesn't believe that argument given arguments he has made in the past as a coach of a 1 loss team.
    "This isnít stats vs scouts - this is stats and scouts working together, building an organization that blends the best of both worlds. This is the blueprint for how a baseball organization should be run. And, whether the baseball men of the 20th century like it or not, this is where baseball is going."---Dave Cameron, U.S.S. Mariner

  19. #765
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    Re: SEC Football discussion thread #2

    Quote Originally Posted by jojo View Post
    I agree that the SEC is down but a few points though... they're down because the NFL raided what wouldve been exceptional senior classes at multiple schools (LSU essentially lost their senior starting class) and there have been a historic number of injuries to top tier skill players at several programs. Despite all of this, the SEC is still a stronger conference than the Big Ten and the gap is signficant. Forget the reasons for the SEC being a bit down, it's immaterial to the notion that a 1 loss SEC champion has a better resume than an undefeated Big Ten champion due to the gap in strength that still exists between the two conferences. I understand why Buckeye fan wants to claim going undeafeated trumps all but clearly even Meyer doesn't believe that argument given arguments he has made in the past as a coach of a 1 loss team.
    This year the top three from the Big Ten can play with the top three of the SEC. In the middle gap the SEC is clearly better.

    I don't believe Meyer has ever advocated a 1-loss SEC team getting a bid over an unbeaten team from a power conference. But if you want to show me a link or quote I'm all ears... He successfully lobbied for UF in 2007 after #2 Michigan lost to #1 OSU.

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