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Thread: Joey Votto - 'I want every single RBI, every single run'

  1. #46
    Flash the leather! _Sir_Charles_'s Avatar
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    Re: Joey Votto - 'I want every single RBI, every single run'

    Quote Originally Posted by Salukifan2 View Post
    Marty seems to be overreacting a lot on votto. Marty bashing votto appears to happen ever day with how often it is discussed on RZ.

    But, as of right now Joey is on pace for two more extrabase hits this year than last. Except last year he only played in 111 games. He will probably end up with his worst slg% of his career so far. He is on pace this season to set his new career high in strikeouts (I am someone who still believes strikeouts are bad. Everyone's BABIP is .000 if they K). Compound that with the fact that he is having the worst defensive season since '09.

    Before people jump all over me, remember that I believe joey is the best batter in the NL, but people shouldn't be criticised for taking note that he is having possibly the worst season of his career at the same time the reds have their best opportunity to win a championship, he is in his age 29 season (which should be his most productive), and he just signed the 4th richest contract in MLB history.

    I still love votto and think watching him at the plate is like watching Picasso work on canvas, but that doesn't mean myself or anyone else isn't allowed to notice that he isn't playing like per injury votto.
    I'm sure most of us Reds fans are guilty of homerism from time to time...but IMO Salukifan2 here hit the nail on the head. Joey is still a beast, he's still the best hitter in the NL and on the Reds...but let's be honest. He's having a poor year for him in many aspects. The power is down (albeit due to fewer opportunities with being pitched around), the K's are up (sometimes it seems that he is trying to mollify his critics by expanding the zone), the defense is WAY down (mental mistakes more than anything IMO). For a guy that brings so much to the table, his weaknesses this season are unfortunately pretty glaring ones that make it easy for the basic fan to pounce on. All that being said, I still think he'll end up with the MVP and WS mvp.
    Chapman to the rotation!!!! Do it already!!!!

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  4. #47
    Ripsnort wheels's Avatar
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    Re: Joey Votto - 'I want every single RBI, every single run'

    Quote Originally Posted by *BaseClogger* View Post
    When you're watching a Reds game and Choo comes to the plate, do you feel like the eight best hitter in MLB just stepped into the box?
    Every single time.
    "We know we're better than this, but we can't prove it." - Tony Gwynn

  5. #48
    Member Billy Hamilton's Legs's Avatar
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    Re: Joey Votto - 'I want every single RBI, every single run'

    Quote Originally Posted by *BaseClogger* View Post
    When you're watching a Reds game and Choo comes to the plate, do you feel like the eight best hitter in MLB just stepped into the box?
    I'm guessing most people don't. Which is why the prospect of getting him on a 4yr/60mil deal (per mlbtr) would be a steal. Offense could be ugly next year without him. People have already discussed this, but put up with his defense for one more year in CF and when ludwick walks, you slide him over into LF and put billy in CF. Gives Billy another year to work on his game which appears to be necessary, and stabilizes an already shaky offense. He's clearly underrated and that's where baseball GMs make their money. I only hope Cast has enough in the bank to make it possible
    Just call me Legs

  6. #49
    Member Razor Shines's Avatar
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    Re: Joey Votto - 'I want every single RBI, every single run'

    Quote Originally Posted by _Sir_Charles_ View Post
    I'm sure most of us Reds fans are guilty of homerism from time to time...but IMO Salukifan2 here hit the nail on the head. Joey is still a beast, he's still the best hitter in the NL and on the Reds...but let's be honest. He's having a poor year for him in many aspects. The power is down (albeit due to fewer opportunities with being pitched around), the K's are up (sometimes it seems that he is trying to mollify his critics by expanding the zone), the defense is WAY down (mental mistakes more than anything IMO). For a guy that brings so much to the table, his weaknesses this season are unfortunately pretty glaring ones that make it easy for the basic fan to pounce on. All that being said, I still think he'll end up with the MVP and WS mvp.
    I don't know. If the dude is going to lead the league in OBP and still slug over .500, I'm gonna have trouble calling it a down year. Do I want him to slug .600? Sure but that's not going to happen very often and I don't really think it's as much in his control as some believe. I think it's extremely difficult and takes mountains of discipline to take your walk when you're getting pitched around night after night and you know you're the best hitter in the NL. It's easy to expand the zone and go after bad balls and then say "hey, I'm not getting the pitches. I swing at what I can get".

    After reading that story I don't know if there's ever been a player I like as much as Joey.

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  8. #50
    Potential Lunch Winner Dom Heffner's Avatar
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    Re: Joey Votto - 'I want every single RBI, every single run'

    Brandon Phillips has been one of my favorite Reds throughout his tenure here in Cincinnati. However, anyone that looks at the situation objectively will see that aside from the 92 RBIs that he has, he is having a horrible season offensively. It's his worst to date on so many levels. A .728 OPS does not make an MVP. No way, no how. If some want to judge his season on the number of RBIs that he has, they need to first acknowledge the fact that he's only driven himself in 15 times (15 HRs) and the other 77 RBI opportunities were created by his teammates setting the table for him by getting on base. Something that Votto does masterfully.
    Yes, yes, yes!

    RBI's are contextual- Just look at Joe Carter, for God's sake. Yeah, you put Alomar and Molitor ahead of him and wow, suddenly hitting .250 you are a huge run "producer"!

    Tony Perez- okay hitter, lots of OPPORTUNITES.

    That is the context- opportunities.

    Choo only has 38 RBI's, nobody says anything about that. It's because 1) he leads off which is 25% of his opportunities and 2) he has the 7th, 8th, and 9th hitters ahead of him the rest of the game.

    Our two hole has been so bad that Votto is essentially a lead off hitter most of the game after his first at bat.

    I will never, ever, ever, ever get blaming the best player on a team...this is like upside-down world for me.

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  10. #51
    Titanic Struggles Caveat Emperor's Avatar
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    Re: Joey Votto - 'I want every single RBI, every single run'

    I'm struggling to understand who, in 2013, still thinks that productivity has anything to do with RBIs.

    I mean -- we're beyond the point where it's cute not to understand this kind of stuff.
    Championships Matter.
    24 Years and Counting...

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  12. #52
    Where's my chair? REDREAD's Avatar
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    Re: Joey Votto - 'I want every single RBI, every single run'

    Quote Originally Posted by Larkin Fan View Post
    When I turned on the TV and heard his voice AND Brantley's, I realized that it was going to be a VERY LONG night. It doesn't get any worse than that.

    Radio was a rare treat last night.. Welsh and Kelch.. Marty on vacation
    Thank you Walt and Bob for going for it in 2010-2014!

    Nov. 13, 2007: One of the greatest days in Reds history: John Allen gets the boot!

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  14. #53
    Member RedsBrick's Avatar
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    Re: Joey Votto - 'I want every single RBI, every single run'

    Quote Originally Posted by BuckeyeRedleg View Post
    Dunn was treated the same way. He had no protection in the lineup and was blasted for taking walks and not knocking in runs when it "counted". Of course, the complainers ignored the fact that Dunn was being pitched around. If he had reached for a bad pitch and struck out (which he sometimes did), he would get blasted as well.

    900+ OPS bats should be the last thing being criticized, but unfortunately that is not the case in this town.
    It's probably not the case in many towns.

  15. #54
    Potential Lunch Winner Dom Heffner's Avatar
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    Re: Joey Votto - 'I want every single RBI, every single run'

    If the dude is going to lead the league in OBP and still slug over .500, I'm gonna have trouble calling it a down year. Do I want him to slug .600?
    Just to point out- Votto is slugging .500 in a DOWN year for the league. With the exception of Cabrera, Trout, Edwin- I mean, who is having a great offensive year?

    It's one thing to blame Votto for his offense slipping, but look at the rest of the league- it's down for everyone.

    Longoria isn't Longoria. Braun wasn't Braun. Aramis Ramirez has six home runs.

    Billy Butler is down.

    For this town to compare Votto this year to year's past is not fair.

    His OPS+ is precisely that for his career right now. I understand he's only 54% better than the league average than 74% better but complaining about that is like being a Rodney Dangerfield spectator: tough crowd.

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  17. #55
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    Re: Joey Votto - 'I want every single RBI, every single run'

    Quote Originally Posted by Caveat Emperor View Post
    I'm struggling to understand who, in 2013, still thinks that productivity has anything to do with RBIs.

    I mean -- we're beyond the point where it's cute not to understand this kind of stuff.
    Yeah, I wonder who:

    “On-base percentage is good. But RBIs are better,” (Dusty) Baker said.

    http://www.fangraphs.com/blogs/anato...p-rbi-machine/

  18. #56
    Pre-tty, pre-tty good!! MWM's Avatar
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    Re: Joey Votto - 'I want every single RBI, every single run'

    Quote Originally Posted by Larkin Fan View Post
    It's been the same story for years.

    Adam Dunn, Barry Larkin, Junior, Eric Davis. The list goes on and on for Marty's favorite whipping boy.
    Exactly what I was going to say. The Cincinnati media, and as a result a significant portion of the fanbase, has somehow always found a way to berate their best players. I don't get why it's continued to be allowed.

    Joey just laid gave one of the most well-articulated, intelligent, and insightful discourses on hitting/approach to an AB that I've ever read. But most of what he said is so far over the head of the Brenneman's and Daugherty's of the world that they will never get it and continue to want every player to be Pete Rose.
    Grape works as a soda. Sort of as a gum. I wonder why it doesn't work as a pie. Grape pie? There's no grape pie. - Larry David

  19. #57
    breath westofyou's Avatar
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    Re: Joey Votto - 'I want every single RBI, every single run'

    Quote Originally Posted by CesarGeronimo View Post
    Yeah, I wonder who:

    “On-base percentage is good. But RBIs are better,” (Dusty) Baker said.

    http://www.fangraphs.com/blogs/anato...p-rbi-machine/
    Dusty was an All Star player and a hitting coach and I'll take his askew approach to baseball hitting any day over the Brennamen's lack of understanding of the game beyond their small world view

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  21. #58
    Member NebraskaRed's Avatar
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    Re: Joey Votto - 'I want every single RBI, every single run'

    Quote Originally Posted by CesarGeronimo View Post
    Yeah, I wonder who:

    “On-base percentage is good. But RBIs are better,” (Dusty) Baker said.

    http://www.fangraphs.com/blogs/anato...p-rbi-machine/
    The full quote is

    "On-base percentage is good. But RBIs are better," Baker said. "If you can get all of it, that's better yet."
    He was saying that getting on base is good, but getting runs in is even better. It's not an either/or thing.

    I mean it is for Brennaman, etc. Which shows how their thinking on this issue is extremely shallow.

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  23. #59
    Titanic Struggles Caveat Emperor's Avatar
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    Re: Joey Votto - 'I want every single RBI, every single run'

    If every player in the lineup avoids making an out, the final score is Infinity to 0 (or whatever the starting pitcher allowed in the top of the inning). That alone should tell you where OBP ranks in the list of "important things you should do on a baseball diamond."

    I feel like this is one of those AT&T commercials with the guy talking to the little kids.
    Championships Matter.
    24 Years and Counting...

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  25. #60
    My clutch is broken RichRed's Avatar
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    Re: Joey Votto - 'I want every single RBI, every single run'

    Quote Originally Posted by Dom Heffner View Post
    Just to point out- Votto is slugging .500 in a DOWN year for the league. With the exception of Cabrera, Trout, Edwin- I mean, who is having a great offensive year?

    It's one thing to blame Votto for his offense slipping, but look at the rest of the league- it's down for everyone.

    Longoria isn't Longoria. Braun wasn't Braun. Aramis Ramirez has six home runs.

    Billy Butler is down.

    For this town to compare Votto this year to year's past is not fair.

    His OPS+ is precisely that for his career right now. I understand he's only 54% better than the league average than 74% better but complaining about that is like being a Rodney Dangerfield spectator: tough crowd.
    Good luck getting the Brennaboys & "Doc" to grasp context and nuance.
    "I can make all the stadiums rock."
    -Air Supply


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