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Thread: Votto leads the team in OPS with RISP

  1. #16
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    Re: Votto leads the team in OPS with RISP

    Lots of misunderstanding in this thread.
    "I talked to an advance scout that told me if Joey Votto and Albert Pujols were on the same team he'd advise his team to do the unthinkable...pitch around Votto to get to Pujols." - Buster Olney, ESPN

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  3. #17
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    Re: Votto leads the team in OPS with RISP

    Quote Originally Posted by RedlegJake View Post
    Then people who are his detractors say he needs to "expand his zone" which means, of course, swing at pitches that are bad pitches. Which means try to hit balls that likely cannot be hit well if at all which is stupid. Look at what happens when BP tries it. Foul, foul. Or lunging and missing.
    Yet nobody had a problem with Votto's approach the past 3 seasons when he put up the insane .375/.514/.683/1.197 line with RISP. The approach is the same approach.


    I think it's a stupid assumption to think great run producers do so because they chase balls out of the zone and bloop them into the outfield for a soft single.

    Miggy has been great this year because he's mashing balls in nearly every part of the strike zone.

  4. #18
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    Re: Votto leads the team in OPS with RISP

    Quote Originally Posted by RedTeamGo! View Post
    Instead of being "pretty sure" (in this case, wrong), why not just look it up? It literally took me 20 seconds to answer both of your above questions. www.baseball-reference.com

    Batting Average with RISP = .314
    OBP with RISP = .469
    Slugging% with RISP = .495

    These are all very good numbers with RISP.
    Because 20 seconds for you is a lie. Why belittle someone like that? You also don't know their circumstances. They could be using a droid, to where it could take several minutes to look it up if they are traveling. There could be a number of other situations that keeps them from doing it. Or perhaps, being exact, isn't necessary for something that is so obvious to everyone, that Votto's OPS is OBP driven. No need for you to get on someone like that for a simple post they were making.

  5. #19
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    Re: Votto leads the team in OPS with RISP

    Quote Originally Posted by SlimJim11 View Post
    Also you say this like it's a bad thing. Why is it bad to get on base and not make an out?

    Which scenario do you think scores more runs long term.

    Scenario 1

    1 run in, 0 runners on, and 1 out


    Scenario 2

    0 runs in, runners on first and 3rd, and 0 outs
    Because Votto needs to be driving in runs. The players who drive in runs on a consistent basis open up their strike zone in situations when there's an opportunity for driving in runs.

    When the rest of the lineup starts hitting better, Votto's decision to not open up his strike zone in run-producing opportunities won't be an issue, as Votto could end up scoring 150+ runs in a season, making up for the lower RBI total from this season.

    As Cozart and Frazier enter their third full seasons, and Mesoraco enters his second full season, all three of these players will end up driving in Votto more often (and giving Votto more opportunities for runs to be batted in).

    This doesn't include the assumed production that will come from Left Field next season as Heisey is a year older and Ludwick is healthy again.

  6. #20
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    Re: Votto leads the team in OPS with RISP

    Quote Originally Posted by dougdirt View Post
    It also makes up less than 9% of his total plate appearances and people are hanging their "Votto is unclutch" hat on it.
    Has anyone truly suggested that Votto is unclutch? I certainly haven't. I thought that most people who think Votto isn't producing enough runs batted in has to do with his plate approach, not his ability to produce in the clutch.

    Votto is the most consistent hitter the REDS have ever had. It doesn't matter the situation, who's pitching, etc. He produces the same numbers all the time. He just doesn't have slumps.

    Those who would like to see Votto produce more RBI's would like to see his approach change when the run-producing opportunities are there. We would like to see him expand his strike zone or swing sometimes at the first fastball-strike he sees (because it may be the only one he gets).

    Votto is great enough that expanding his strike zone under run-producing situations will have a more positive impact in producing a greater number of runs for the team, especially with the weakness of the lower part of the lineup this season.

  7. #21
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    Re: Votto leads the team in OPS with RISP

    Did you miss the stats where over the previous 3 seasons Votto put up better numbers across the board than Miggy with RISP? All of that with the same approach Votto uses now. If you've got a problem with an approach that leads to .375/.514/.683/1.197 then you have the problem, not Votto.

    Also you didn't answer my question about the 2 scenarios. Which one do you think scores more runs long term?

  8. #22
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    Re: Votto leads the team in OPS with RISP

    Quote Originally Posted by SlimJim11 View Post

    Also you didn't answer my question about the 2 scenarios. Which one do you think scores more runs long term?
    We're not talking long term. The only discussion by anyone has been about this season. His approach is producing less runs this season.

    My post #20 references how this season is different than the others because of those hitting around him.

  9. #23
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    Re: Votto leads the team in OPS with RISP

    Well the long term is over the course of a season, but I know why you aren't answering the question.

    His approach is not producing less runs. You just act like it is. The Reds are 4th in the NL in runs, where do they come from?

    Btw Votto leads the NL in runs created. So I'd love to know how he's producing less runs.

  10. #24
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    Re: Votto leads the team in OPS with RISP

    Quote Originally Posted by SlimJim11 View Post
    Well the long term is over the course of a season, but I know why you aren't answering the question.

    His approach is not producing less runs. You just act like it is. The Reds are 4th in the NL in runs, where do they come from?

    Btw Votto leads the NL in runs created. So I'd love to know how he's producing less runs.
    I answered the question. I don't care what he did last year or the year before, and I firmly believe that Votto is not producing as many runs as he should be.

  11. #25
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    Re: Votto leads the team in OPS with RISP

    So you think scenario 1 I guess.


    If you firmly believe Votto is not productive (even though he leads the NL in runs created) can you tell me, with stats, why you don't think he's being productive?

  12. #26
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    Re: Votto leads the team in OPS with RISP

    Quote Originally Posted by Kingspoint View Post
    The players who drive in runs on a consistent basis open up their strike zone in situations when there's an opportunity for driving in runs.
    Any evidence to support that assertion?
    Babe Ruth had 2220 career RBI and also walked a bunch. Barry Bonds is perhaps my least favorite player ever, but he had 1996 career RBI and walked more in a single season than anybody. Ted Williams had 1839 career RBI in a career shortened by nearly five seasons because of military service and he regularly walked 150 times a season and refused to expand his strike zone for anyone.
    Other than perhaps Vlad Guerrero, Yogi Berra, Paul Daugherty and Marty Brennaman, who are the MLB hitters who ever had any great success intentionally expanding their strike zone to swing at pitches than are not strikes?
    "Hey...Dad. Wanna Have A Catch?" Kevin Costner in "Field Of Dreams."

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  14. #27
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    Re: Votto leads the team in OPS with RISP

    Quote Originally Posted by SlimJim11 View Post
    So you think scenario 1 I guess.


    If you firmly believe Votto is not productive (even though he leads the NL in runs created) can you tell me, with stats, why you don't think he's being productive?
    It doesn't matter if he is leading the NL in runs created. Every other player on the team is creating more runs per dollar spent than Votto is. Votto is dead last on the REDS in creating runs per dollar invested.

    There are completely different expectations for every player, and Votto is not reaching the expectations for him "this season".

  15. #28
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    Re: Votto leads the team in OPS with RISP

    Hmm, I guess you are just trolling this thread?

  16. #29
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    Re: Votto leads the team in OPS with RISP

    Quote Originally Posted by SlimJim11 View Post
    Hmm, I guess you are just trolling this thread?
    NO!

    Read my responses. They are fairly succinct.

  17. #30
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    Re: Votto leads the team in OPS with RISP

    Quote Originally Posted by SlimJim11 View Post
    In fact his .964 OPS with RISP is better than his .938 overall OPS this year. But I guess letting facts get in the way of a good argument isn't a fun time.
    Marty Brennaman: "I don't care, he's still not getting the job done"

    I really wish the Cincinnati media would stop beating up the star players on the Reds as soon as their paychecks get big. It's been going on far too long.
    If Votto had 100 RBI now, they'd find something else to criticize about him.
    Thank you Walt and Bob for going for it in 2010-2014!

    Nov. 13, 2007: One of the greatest days in Reds history: John Allen gets the boot!

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