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Thread: Most overrated player in baseball?

  1. #196
    The Boss dougdirt's Avatar
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    Re: Most overrated player in baseball?

    Quote Originally Posted by Redsfan08 View Post
    denial denial denial dont get me wrong I think Joey Votto is a good player but not 200million dollars good if you actually think hes worth all that money I cant argue with you anymore because it not going to get us anywhere the only thing we can agree on is to disagree I guess
    He isn't being paid $200M. This season, he was paid $17M and he was worth every penny of it. Next year he makes $12M and the year after that he makes $14M. My guess is that he will be well worth those prices too.

    You are probably right though, we should just agree to disagree because your logic on value/worth of a baseball player is probably directly tied to RBI and well, yeah, I simply can't get behind that.

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  3. #197
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    Re: Most overrated player in baseball?

    That Joey Votto guy is an award winning baseball player. Ya know, that award for overrated players known as the MVP award.

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  5. #198
    The Boss dougdirt's Avatar
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    Re: Most overrated player in baseball?

    Quote Originally Posted by Redsfan08 View Post
    Hey he is an award winnng hall of fame broadcaster I will take it
    He isn't inducted in the Baseball Hall of Fame. He won a yearly award that gets placed in the Baseball Hall of Fame. He is in there as much as Pete Rose is. They both have something in there, but neither is elected or a member of the Baseball Hall of Fame in Cooperstown, New York.

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    RedsBaron (09-02-2013)

  7. #199
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    Re: Most overrated player in baseball?

    Quote Originally Posted by dougdirt View Post
    He isn't inducted in the Baseball Hall of Fame. He won a yearly award that gets placed in the Baseball Hall of Fame. He is in there as much as Pete Rose is. They both have something in there, but neither is elected or a member of the Baseball Hall of Fame in Cooperstown, New York.
    He never played though all he is doing is what me and you are doing and he managed to win an award for it. Let me beat someone to it yeah but Joey plays and won an award for it.To which I would then respond yeah lets cynical and act like children.

  8. #200
    The Boss dougdirt's Avatar
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    Re: Most overrated player in baseball?

    Quote Originally Posted by Redsfan08 View Post
    He never played though all he is doing is what me and you are doing and he managed to win an award for it. Let me beat someone to it yeah but Joey plays and won an award for it.To which I would then respond yeah lets cynical and act like children.
    He isn't doing what I do.

  9. #201
    Start the Reactor! *BaseClogger*'s Avatar
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    Re: Most overrated player in baseball?

    Quote Originally Posted by Redsfan08 View Post
    He never played though all he is doing is what me and you are doing and he managed to win an award for it. Let me beat someone to it yeah but Joey plays and won an award for it.To which I would then respond yeah lets cynical and act like children.
    How u doin
    "On-base percentage is great if you can score runs and do something with that on-base percentage," Baker said. "Clogging up the bases isn't that great to me."

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  11. #202
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    Re: Most overrated player in baseball?

    Quote Originally Posted by Larkin Fan View Post
    That Joey Votto guy is an award winning baseball player. Ya know, that award for overrated players known as the MVP award.
    Yeah...but playing that game Josh Hamilton won it the same year, probably really impressing the Angels fans.

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  13. #203
    breath westofyou's Avatar
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    Re: Most overrated player in baseball?

    Quote Originally Posted by Redsfan08 View Post
    denial denial denial dont get me wrong I think Joey Votto is a good player but not 200million dollars good if you actually think hes worth all that money I cant argue with you anymore because it not going to get us anywhere the only thing we can agree on is to disagree I guess
    So "what's a 200 Million dollar player"

    What do YOU use as measurement for such a number?

    What rate is Votto worth?

    The whole Votto, not just the guy who was 2-18 on the road trip, the whole package? As it relates to the franchise and the rest of the league.

    It's easy to say something is not worth something when you don't set a baseline for your statement, so how about setting a baseline so I can understand what you actually think he's worth relative to the rest of the games players.

  14. #204
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    Re: Most overrated player in baseball?

    Quote Originally Posted by TOBTTReds View Post
    I agree that he is frustrating to watch right now, but it is mainly because I expect so much from him. Votto is a much better hitter than Bruce, but he frustrates me more because there were times that Votto was almost fictionally successful.

    I honestly don't think it would be such a big deal if the media didn't turn this into some team MVP thing between Phillips and Votto. If Phillips played for the A's, we would never be comparing the two and trying to figure out which guy is better for the team. We'd probably talk about how someone else needs to step up and help Votto.
    The media has zero to do with my issues. Offensively, even though he doesn't attack enough for my liking and whiffs too much is still a top 7 player offensively and that's more than ample.....him having so many lapses without focus are perplexing to me. He is the worst base running superstar I've ever seen and just just a bad base runner in general. On defense there have been double the head scratchers than I expected.

    On the base running part what maybe gets me the most is that Speier and Berry are poor at 3rd base coach, Bruce, Meso, Phillips, Heisey, Cozart, Choo, Paul and Frazier have had too many WTH moments and as a team they are awful on the bases.....this is where you expect your best player to step up and be a good base runner but he is the worst of them all.

  15. #205
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    Re: Most overrated player in baseball?

    Quote Originally Posted by Ironman92 View Post
    The media has zero to do with my issues. Offensively, even though he doesn't attack enough for my liking and whiffs too much is still a top 7 player offensively and that's more than ample.....him having so many lapses without focus are perplexing to me. He is the worst base running superstar I've ever seen and just just a bad base runner in general. On defense there have been double the head scratchers than I expected.

    On the base running part what maybe gets me the most is that Speier and Berry are poor at 3rd base coach, Bruce, Meso, Phillips, Heisey, Cozart, Choo, Paul and Frazier have had too many WTH moments and as a team they are awful on the bases.....this is where you expect your best player to step up and be a good base runner but he is the worst of them all.


    I think you're being too harsh on Votto's baserunning. Fangraphs' Ultimate Base Running stat (see the explanation here) actually has him as the best base runner among major league first basemen, and has him at third best on the Reds.

    His fielding, meanwhile, has seemingly taken a step back this year, but I'd be careful not too much too much stock on a few highly visible errors. UZR still thinks he's above average as a defender, and while I recognize there are problems with UZR, there's at least cause for optimism regarding Votto's fielding.

  16. #206
    Member Ironman92's Avatar
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    Re: Most overrated player in baseball?

    Quote Originally Posted by LegallyMinded View Post
    I think you're being too harsh on Votto's baserunning. Fangraphs' Ultimate Base Running stat (see the explanation here) actually has him as the best base runner among major league first basemen, and has him at third best on the Reds.

    His fielding, meanwhile, has seemingly taken a step back this year, but I'd be careful not too much too much stock on a few highly visible errors. UZR still thinks he's above average as a defender, and while I recognize there are problems with UZR, there's at least cause for optimism regarding Votto's fielding.
    I can agree on the fielding mostly but the number of times this season he has been unaware of where BP was playing, not calling off Meso, olay'ing balls he had plenty of time to get in front of....not blocking balls at first. I don't give a ray's butt about the rest of the league's 1B...Votto has declined from last year and a good bit from his GG year.

    1st-3rd, scoring from 2nd on a single or 1st on a double....maybe he is pretty good compared to other NL 1B (which I still don't care about that)....how many times can one guy get thrown out by a "give up" margin? It may not have cost the Reds a single game...but his base running has just been head scratching way too often for any big leaguer. Those things, while maybe not costing the Reds wins.....frustrate me.

    Back in June some where complaining of the Reds team base running on here and someone brought up a metric saying they were well above average. On that thread (near the ASB) I said I'd like for someone to keep tally of the ridiculous base running mistakes of the Reds vs the opponents during the 2nd half. While I haven't kept track....no metric that says the Reds are a good base running team will be something I can believe.

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  18. #207
    RaisorZone Raisor's Avatar
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    Re: Most overrated player in baseball?

    This is why watching 162 games a year is a bad idea. Makes you crazy. Makes putting things in context difficult.
    "But I do know Joey's sister indirectly (or foster sister) and I have heard stories of Joey being into shopping, designer wear, fancy coffees, and pedicures."

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    Re: Most overrated player in baseball?

    Code:
                     
    RK  PLAYER             TEAM     RC
    1   Joey Votto         CIN    107.5
    2   Paul Goldschmidt   ARI    104.5
    3   Shin-Soo Choo      CIN    101.1
    4   Andrew McCutchen   PIT     99.3
    5   Matt Carpenter     STL     96.2
    6   Allen Craig        STL     85.8
    7   Carlos Gonzalez    COL     83.7
    8   Freddie Freeman    ATL     83.4
    9   Michael Cuddyer    COL     83.0
    10  Jay Bruce          CIN     82.9
    Code:
                     
    #   Name               Team          wRC+
    1   Jayson Werth       Nationals     159
    2   Joey Votto         Reds          155
    3   David Wright       Mets          154
    4   Paul Goldschmidt   Diamondbacks  154
    5   Andrew McCutchen   Pirates       149
    6   Carlos Gonzalez    Rockies       148
    7   Shin-Soo Choo      Reds          146
    8   Michael Cuddyer    Rockies       143
    9   Carlos Beltran     Cardinals     141
    10  Buster Posey       Giants        141
    *Werth(104 games), Wright(105), Gonzalez(103) and Cuddyer(111)

    Code:
                     
    RK  PLAYER             TEAM           OPS
    1   Carlos Gonzalez    COL           .958
    2   Paul Goldschmidt   ARI           .943
    3   Jayson Werth       WSH           .932
    4   Michael Cuddyer    COL           .929
    5   Joey Votto         CIN           .925
    6   David Wright       NYM           .904
    7   Andrew McCutchen   PIT           .896
    8   Shin-Soo Choo      CIN           .875
    9   Carlos Beltran     STL           .865
    10  Freddie Freeman    ATL           .860
    Obviously, Votto is an overrated player.

  20. #209
    Big Red Machine RedsBaron's Avatar
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    Re: Most overrated player in baseball?

    Quote Originally Posted by dougdirt View Post
    He isn't inducted in the Baseball Hall of Fame. He won a yearly award that gets placed in the Baseball Hall of Fame. He is in there as much as Pete Rose is. They both have something in there, but neither is elected or a member of the Baseball Hall of Fame in Cooperstown, New York.
    Yes. I frequently see the uniformed comment that Marty Brennaman is "in the Hall of Fame." He is not.
    Marty's receipt of the Ford Frick award is also irrelevant to any discussion about the value of Joey Votto. Marty is able, when he still wants to, to stylistically call a good game. There is little evidence that he has any special expertise in knowing how baseball should be played or in determining the value of a player.
    "Hey...Dad. Wanna Have A Catch?" Kevin Costner in "Field Of Dreams."

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  22. #210
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    Re: Most overrated player in baseball?

    Quote Originally Posted by westofyou View Post
    So "what's a 200 Million dollar player"

    What do YOU use as measurement for such a number?

    What rate is Votto worth?

    The whole Votto, not just the guy who was 2-18 on the road trip, the whole package? As it relates to the franchise and the rest of the league.

    It's easy to say something is not worth something when you don't set a baseline for your statement, so how about setting a baseline so I can understand what you actually think he's worth relative to the rest of the games players.
    So can I ask why doug thinks Votto is worth every penny so I can get a baseline too?


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