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Thread: Most overrated player in baseball?

  1. #91
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    Re: Most overrated player in baseball?

    Quote Originally Posted by M2 View Post
    There's lots of candidates and no set criteria. I'm curious to see what others think.

    Yet, for me, it's Jacoby Ellsbury with a bullet. He's had one big year and he turns 30 in a few weeks. His legs are more valuable than his bat and some foolish team is going to pay him a king's ransom this winter. A king's ransom he will never come close to earning.
    Ellsbury definitely gets his production from his legs. From his Gold-glove caliber Center Field Defense, to his League-Leading Triples and League-Leading Stolen-Bases. So, it really depends on how healthy he is.

    With a College Career behind him, and his two seasons of missed time during his prime years, it's very possible that he does not have a lot of playing time on those wheels that would make "30" seem like the age that it is. He could very easily produce five very good years, but most likely will give a team 3-1/2. But, with Scott Boras his agent, there's no way he settles for five years.

    Boras will target at least 7 years, and consequently, someone will overpay as you say.

    He's currently second in the AL in UZR/150 in CenterField, leads the league in Triples and Stolen Bases. So, maybe he has recovered physically from his injuries.

    I'd take him over Choo in a heartbeat, as I highly value Defense. But, Choo would be a better contract.

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  3. #92
    Rally Onion! Chip R's Avatar
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    Re: Most overrated player in baseball?

    I'm just going to put this out here and then duck.

    Jim Coombs. All the hype he's had and he hasn't delivered.
    The Rally Onion wants 150 fans before Opening Day.

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  5. #93
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    Re: Most overrated player in baseball?

    Quote Originally Posted by jojo View Post
    He's actually having a better offensive season this year than last. Defensively he's been banged up. I think he's having a very nice season and it's one befitting of a young star.
    Check out his numbers since May 1. And that's including an 8-game hitting streak tear he's been on. .247 AVG, .785 OPS. 9 HR. slugging in the low .400s.
    2009 Attendance Record: 3-5 2010 Attendance Record: 2-9
    2011 Attendance Record: 3-4 2012 Attendance Record: 3-4
    2013 Attendance Record: 5-2 2014 Attendance Record: 3-1

  6. #94
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    Re: Most overrated player in baseball?

    Too early to tell, but Harper may end like J.D. Drew underrated in the end for being overrated early.
    The widow is gathering nettles for her children's dinner; a perfumed seigneur, delicately lounging in the Oeil de Boeuf, hath an alchemy whereby he will extract the third nettle and call it rent. ~ Carlyle

  7. #95
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    Re: Most overrated player in baseball?

    Quote Originally Posted by 757690 View Post
    Craig plays firstbase, poorly. It's easy to get a decent hitting bad glove 1B. He's Lyle Overbay, Adam LaRoche, Scott Hatteberg. He's a middle of the pack 1B. Not a bad player, a nice player to have in the cheap. But every team can find guys like this to play first base. He's not an All-Star, and definitley not an MVP candidate, but he's on many people's list this year.

    Bruce is an above average fielder and base runner. He clearly one if the best RF'ers in the league. The game isn't all about offense.
    I have to respond to this. I know you have a bent against Cards players, which is to be expected here, but do you actually believe what you type? First off, how can a player be overrated if he hasn't really been highly rated in the first place? Until very recently, I haven't seen much national attention given to him. Secondly, you might want to check some advanced statistics when you say he's a poor fielder. He's posting a 2.2 UZR at 1B this year. While that isn't spectacular, it also shows he hasn't been a liability there this season. I tread lightly when it comes to using errors as a major point but it should be noted that he's only made 1 error this year with a 2B who is learning the position and Pete Kozma at SS most of the year. He's been competent when there have been bad throws to him.

    In your previous post, you said "That's fine, Lyle Overbay territory, but Craig was an All-Star this year (mostly because he got hot right at the break)". Huhh?? Did you even look at the stats at all?

    Here is Craig's month by month breakdown:

    April/March: .263 .297 .358 .655
    May: .356 .414 .538 .952
    June: .330 .357 .528 .885
    July: .311 .379 .411 .790
    August: .296 .418.407.826

    Those stats do not suggest a player making the AS team due to only getting hot right at the break. He's been one of the best hitters in baseball most of the year and there is no statistical evidence you can bring to the table to refute that.

    He doesn't deserve to be an AS? Who else besides Goldy and Votto would you have picked over Craig to play 1B in the AS game? Freddie Freeman would have been the only other logical choice and when the AS selection was given, Allen Craig was having a better statistical season than Freeman.

    What is always noted about Allen Craig in the national media, more so than his overall ability, is his numbers with RISP. Is that overrated? He led the NL in batting average with RISP last year in the NL and he has an insane .447 BA this year with RISP. Since he's been in the majors, he's been hitting .390 with men in RISP. Pound for pound he's been one of the best RBI and situational hitting baseball players since he first came up from the minors.

    You can hate the Cardinals, it's to be expected here. However, don't let your hate blind you to the point of insanity. I don't think he's even close to being a league MVP (esp. when Neck Tats is the clear Cardinals MVP) but to say he's overrated simply doesn't jive with any sane statistical analysis.

    EDIT: One other thing. I'm pretty sure most Reds fans would want the "middle of the pack 1B" Allen Craig playing LF for them. It's not easy to find someone who puts up monster numbers year in and year out so don't dilute yourself in thinking that they grow on trees just to justify your silly stance on Allen Craig.
    Last edited by MikeThierry; 08-27-2013 at 03:05 AM.
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  8. #96
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    Re: Most overrated player in baseball?

    Quote Originally Posted by MikeThierry View Post
    I have to respond to this. I know you have a bent against Cards players, which is to be expected here, but do you actually believe what you type? First off, how can a player be overrated if he hasn't really been highly rated in the first place? Until very recently, I haven't seen much national attention given to him. Secondly, you might want to check some advanced statistics when you say he's a poor fielder. He's posting a 2.2 UZR at 1B this year. While that isn't spectacular, it also shows he hasn't been a liability there this season. I tread lightly when it comes to using errors as a major point but it should be noted that he's only made 1 error this year with a 2B who is learning the position and Pete Kozma at SS most of the year. He's been competent when there have been bad throws to him.

    In your previous post, you said "That's fine, Lyle Overbay territory, but Craig was an All-Star this year (mostly because he got hot right at the break)". Huhh?? Did you even look at the stats at all?

    Here is Craig's month by month breakdown:

    April/March: .263 .297 .358 .655
    May: .356 .414 .538 .952
    June: .330 .357 .528 .885
    July: .311 .379 .411 .790
    August: .296 .418.407.826

    Those stats do not suggest a player making the AS team due to only getting hot right at the break. He's been one of the best hitters in baseball most of the year and there is no statistical evidence you can bring to the table to refute that.

    He doesn't deserve to be an AS? Who else besides Goldy and Votto would you have picked over Craig to play 1B in the AS game? Freddie Freeman would have been the only other logical choice and when the AS selection was given, Allen Craig was having a better statistical season than Freeman.

    What is always noted about Allen Craig in the national media, more so than his overall ability, is his numbers with RISP. Is that overrated? He led the NL in batting average with RISP last year in the NL and he has an insane .447 BA this year with RISP. Since he's been in the majors, he's been hitting .390 with men in RISP. Pound for pound he's been one of the best RBI and situational hitting baseball players since he first came up from the minors.

    You can hate the Cardinals, it's to be expected here. However, don't let your hate blind you to the point of insanity. I don't think he's even close to being a league MVP (esp. when Neck Tats is the clear Cardinals MVP) but to say he's overrated simply doesn't jive with any sane statistical analysis.

    EDIT: One other thing. I'm pretty sure most Reds fans would want the "middle of the pack 1B" Allen Craig playing LF for them. It's not easy to find someone who puts up monster numbers year in and year out so don't dilute yourself in thinking that they grow on trees just to justify your silly stance on Allen Craig.

    1. Worst timed post on Redszone... ever. Seriously.

    2. Allen Craig has a -1.5 UZR rating overall. He's a poor fielding 1B.

    3. Allen Craig is around a 3 win 1B or LF. That's fine if he's cheap, like Craig is, but nothing special. 1B and LF are sluggers positions. They should be better than just good hitters because they are playing the least valuable defensive positions on the field. They should be your best hitters, not just good hitters.

    4. Allen Craig's BA with RISP is driven by an unsustainable BABIP. It will not continue. Plus, It's a horrible way to judge a player's overall talent.

    5. Why did the All-Star team need three 1B? Plenty of players at other positions much more deserving. Craig had a year high .872 OPS at the All-Star break. It's now .827. No way he makes the All-Star team as a poor fielding 1B with a .827 OPS.

    And of course I would like to have Craig on the Reds. But that doesn't mean he's not overrated. He's not an All-Star or even an above average player. He's just a good player. And yet the guy is listed on most MVP lists. That's the perfect definition of overrated.
    "Man, the pitch looks fast, even in slow motion." Thom Brennaman on Chapman's fastball.

  9. #97
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    Re: Most overrated player in baseball?

    Quote Originally Posted by MikeThierry View Post
    I have to respond to this. I know you have a bent against Cards players, which is to be expected here, but do you actually believe what you type? First off, how can a player be overrated if he hasn't really been highly rated in the first place? Until very recently, I haven't seen much national attention given to him. Secondly, you might want to check some advanced statistics when you say he's a poor fielder. He's posting a 2.2 UZR at 1B this year. While that isn't spectacular, it also shows he hasn't been a liability there this season. I tread lightly when it comes to using errors as a major point but it should be noted that he's only made 1 error this year with a 2B who is learning the position and Pete Kozma at SS most of the year. He's been competent when there have been bad throws to him.

    In your previous post, you said "That's fine, Lyle Overbay territory, but Craig was an All-Star this year (mostly because he got hot right at the break)". Huhh?? Did you even look at the stats at all?

    Here is Craig's month by month breakdown:

    April/March: .263 .297 .358 .655
    May: .356 .414 .538 .952
    June: .330 .357 .528 .885
    July: .311 .379 .411 .790
    August: .296 .418.407.826

    Those stats do not suggest a player making the AS team due to only getting hot right at the break. He's been one of the best hitters in baseball most of the year and there is no statistical evidence you can bring to the table to refute that.

    He doesn't deserve to be an AS? Who else besides Goldy and Votto would you have picked over Craig to play 1B in the AS game? Freddie Freeman would have been the only other logical choice and when the AS selection was given, Allen Craig was having a better statistical season than Freeman.

    What is always noted about Allen Craig in the national media, more so than his overall ability, is his numbers with RISP. Is that overrated? He led the NL in batting average with RISP last year in the NL and he has an insane .447 BA this year with RISP. Since he's been in the majors, he's been hitting .390 with men in RISP. Pound for pound he's been one of the best RBI and situational hitting baseball players since he first came up from the minors.

    You can hate the Cardinals, it's to be expected here. However, don't let your hate blind you to the point of insanity. I don't think he's even close to being a league MVP (esp. when Neck Tats is the clear Cardinals MVP) but to say he's overrated simply doesn't jive with any sane statistical analysis.

    EDIT: One other thing. I'm pretty sure most Reds fans would want the "middle of the pack 1B" Allen Craig playing LF for them. It's not easy to find someone who puts up monster numbers year in and year out so don't dilute yourself in thinking that they grow on trees just to justify your silly stance on Allen Craig.
    When exactly did he put up monster numbers?
    I can't remember at all.
    You mean this season?
    Code:
              
    RK  Player             OPS
    1   Carlos Gonzalez   .958
    2   Paul Goldschmidt  .944
    3   Joey Votto        .936
    4   Michael Cuddyer   .928
    5   Andrew McCutchen  .907
    6   Daivd Wright      .904
    7   Carlos Beltran    .872
    8   Freddie Freeman   .869
    9   Yadier Molina     .869
    10  Matt Carpenter    .861
    11  Buster Posey      .856
    12  Shin-Soo Choo     .853
    13  Marlon Byrd       .848
    14  Carlos Gomez      .845
    15  Matt Holliday     .841
    16  Allen Craig       .841
    17  Domonic Brown     .841
    Of course, he's a good hitter.
    But, I don't think that he has been one of the best hitters.

  10. #98
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    Re: Most overrated player in baseball?

    Quote Originally Posted by MikeThierry View Post
    I have to respond to this. I know you have a bent against Cards players, which is to be expected here, but do you actually believe what you type? First off, how can a player be overrated if he hasn't really been highly rated in the first place? Until very recently, I haven't seen much national attention given to him. Secondly, you might want to check some advanced statistics when you say he's a poor fielder. He's posting a 2.2 UZR at 1B this year. While that isn't spectacular, it also shows he hasn't been a liability there this season. I tread lightly when it comes to using errors as a major point but it should be noted that he's only made 1 error this year with a 2B who is learning the position and Pete Kozma at SS most of the year. He's been competent when there have been bad throws to him.

    In your previous post, you said "That's fine, Lyle Overbay territory, but Craig was an All-Star this year (mostly because he got hot right at the break)". Huhh?? Did you even look at the stats at all?

    Here is Craig's month by month breakdown:

    April/March: .263 .297 .358 .655
    May: .356 .414 .538 .952
    June: .330 .357 .528 .885
    July: .311 .379 .411 .790
    August: .296 .418.407.826

    Those stats do not suggest a player making the AS team due to only getting hot right at the break. He's been one of the best hitters in baseball most of the year and there is no statistical evidence you can bring to the table to refute that.

    He doesn't deserve to be an AS? Who else besides Goldy and Votto would you have picked over Craig to play 1B in the AS game? Freddie Freeman would have been the only other logical choice and when the AS selection was given, Allen Craig was having a better statistical season than Freeman.

    What is always noted about Allen Craig in the national media, more so than his overall ability, is his numbers with RISP. Is that overrated? He led the NL in batting average with RISP last year in the NL and he has an insane .447 BA this year with RISP. Since he's been in the majors, he's been hitting .390 with men in RISP. Pound for pound he's been one of the best RBI and situational hitting baseball players since he first came up from the minors.

    You can hate the Cardinals, it's to be expected here. However, don't let your hate blind you to the point of insanity. I don't think he's even close to being a league MVP (esp. when Neck Tats is the clear Cardinals MVP) but to say he's overrated simply doesn't jive with any sane statistical analysis.

    EDIT: One other thing. I'm pretty sure most Reds fans would want the "middle of the pack 1B" Allen Craig playing LF for them. It's not easy to find someone who puts up monster numbers year in and year out so don't dilute yourself in thinking that they grow on trees just to justify your silly stance on Allen Craig.
    On this one, I envy you.
    Code:
              
    RK  Player             OPS
    1   Carlos Gonzalez   .958
    2   Paul Goldschmidt  .944
    3   Joey Votto        .936
    4   Michael Cuddyer   .928
    5   Andrew McCutchen  .907
    6   Daivd Wright      .904
    7   Carlos Beltran    .872
    8   Freddie Freeman   .869
    9   Yadier Molina     .869
    10  Matt Carpenter    .861
    11  Buster Posey      .856
    12  Shin-Soo Choo     .853
    13  Marlon Byrd       .848
    14  Carlos Gomez      .845
    15  Matt Holliday     .841
    16  Allen Craig       .841
    17  Domonic Brown     .841

  11. #99
    The Big Dog mth123's Avatar
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    Re: Most overrated player in baseball?

    Replacement Level Player is the most overrated. I think the actual "freely available guy" isn't as good as the one used in most calculations.
    "All I can tell them is pick a good one and sock it." --BABE RUTH

    Having better players makes "the right time" or "the big hit" happen a lot more often. PLUS PLUS

  12. #100
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    Re: Most overrated player in baseball?

    Quote Originally Posted by mth123 View Post
    Replacement Level Player is the most overrated. I think the actual "freely available guy" isn't as good as the one used in most calculations.
    its a lot easier to get those replacement levels guys in the offseason. once the season starts if you need a bench player or a stopgap starter they can be quite hard to find
    .

  13. #101
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    Re: Most overrated player in baseball?

    Quote Originally Posted by 757690 View Post
    1. Worst timed post on Redszone... ever. Seriously.

    2. Allen Craig has a -1.5 UZR rating overall. He's a poor fielding 1B.

    3. Allen Craig is around a 3 win 1B or LF. That's fine if he's cheap, like Craig is, but nothing special. 1B and LF are sluggers positions. They should be better than just good hitters because they are playing the least valuable defensive positions on the field. They should be your best hitters, not just good hitters.

    4. Allen Craig's BA with RISP is driven by an unsustainable BABIP. It will not continue. Plus, It's a horrible way to judge a player's overall talent.

    5. Why did the All-Star team need three 1B? Plenty of players at other positions much more deserving. Craig had a year high .872 OPS at the All-Star break. It's now .827. No way he makes the All-Star team as a poor fielding 1B with a .827 OPS.

    And of course I would like to have Craig on the Reds. But that doesn't mean he's not overrated. He's not an All-Star or even an above average player. He's just a good player. And yet the guy is listed on most MVP lists. That's the perfect definition of overrated.
    I guess 1 of his 3 wins was last night

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  15. #102
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    Re: Most overrated player in baseball?

    Quote Originally Posted by MikeThierry View Post
    I have to respond to this. I know you have a bent against Cards players, which is to be expected here, but do you actually believe what you type.
    I can't think of a bigger jerk move, than for a Cardinal fan to come onto a Reds message board, immediately after Allen Craig hits a crushing GS against the Reds in a very important game, to whine about how wonderful Allen Craig is.

    This post Mike is referring to is days old, and he never responded to it... until right now.

    What an a hole.

    More proof that Cardinal fans are the worst fans in the world. Jack Buck is rolling in his grave in embarrassment.

  16. #103
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    Re: Most overrated player in baseball?

    Quote Originally Posted by Ironman92 View Post
    I guess 1 of his 3 wins was last night
    That's funny. And further proof of why Mike's post was completely classless.

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  18. #104
    Salukifan2
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    Re: Most overrated player in baseball?

    Quote Originally Posted by 757690 View Post
    1. Worst timed post on Redszone... ever. Seriously.

    2. Allen Craig has a -1.5 UZR rating overall. He's a poor fielding 1B.

    3. Allen Craig is around a 3 win 1B or LF. That's fine if he's cheap, like Craig is, but nothing special. 1B and LF are sluggers positions. They should be better than just good hitters because they are playing the least valuable defensive positions on the field. They should be your best hitters, not just good hitters.

    4. Allen Craig's BA with RISP is driven by an unsustainable BABIP. It will not continue. Plus, It's a horrible way to judge a player's overall talent.

    5. Why did the All-Star team need three 1B? Plenty of players at other positions much more deserving. Craig had a year high .872 OPS at the All-Star break. It's now .827. No way he makes the All-Star team as a poor fielding 1B with a .827 OPS.

    And of course I would like to have Craig on the Reds. But that doesn't mean he's not overrated. He's not an All-Star or even an above average player. He's just a good player. And yet the guy is listed on most MVP lists. That's the perfect definition of overrated.
    I think it is possible for a player to find something extra within himself when the team needs that pick me up. And i think Allen Craig is just one of those guys. He's dominated the league in BA w/risp for two seasons now. I'm done chalking that up to his BABIP. two years is a big enough sample size for me. That said of course he won't be a career .400 hittier w/risp but I can see him definitely hitting over .330 with risp.

  19. #105
    Salukifan2
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    Re: Most overrated player in baseball?

    Quote Originally Posted by MikeThierry View Post
    I have to respond to this. I know you have a bent against Cards players, which is to be expected here, but do you actually believe what you type? First off, how can a player be overrated if he hasn't really been highly rated in the first place? Until very recently, I haven't seen much national attention given to him. Secondly, you might want to check some advanced statistics when you say he's a poor fielder. He's posting a 2.2 UZR at 1B this year. While that isn't spectacular, it also shows he hasn't been a liability there this season. I tread lightly when it comes to using errors as a major point but it should be noted that he's only made 1 error this year with a 2B who is learning the position and Pete Kozma at SS most of the year. He's been competent when there have been bad throws to him.

    In your previous post, you said "That's fine, Lyle Overbay territory, but Craig was an All-Star this year (mostly because he got hot right at the break)". Huhh?? Did you even look at the stats at all?

    Here is Craig's month by month breakdown:

    April/March: .263 .297 .358 .655
    May: .356 .414 .538 .952
    June: .330 .357 .528 .885
    July: .311 .379 .411 .790
    August: .296 .418.407.826

    Those stats do not suggest a player making the AS team due to only getting hot right at the break. He's been one of the best hitters in baseball most of the year and there is no statistical evidence you can bring to the table to refute that.

    He doesn't deserve to be an AS? Who else besides Goldy and Votto would you have picked over Craig to play 1B in the AS game? Freddie Freeman would have been the only other logical choice and when the AS selection was given, Allen Craig was having a better statistical season than Freeman.

    What is always noted about Allen Craig in the national media, more so than his overall ability, is his numbers with RISP. Is that overrated? He led the NL in batting average with RISP last year in the NL and he has an insane .447 BA this year with RISP. Since he's been in the majors, he's been hitting .390 with men in RISP. Pound for pound he's been one of the best RBI and situational hitting baseball players since he first came up from the minors.

    You can hate the Cardinals, it's to be expected here. However, don't let your hate blind you to the point of insanity. I don't think he's even close to being a league MVP (esp. when Neck Tats is the clear Cardinals MVP) but to say he's overrated simply doesn't jive with any sane statistical analysis.

    EDIT: One other thing. I'm pretty sure most Reds fans would want the "middle of the pack 1B" Allen Craig playing LF for them. It's not easy to find someone who puts up monster numbers year in and year out so don't dilute yourself in thinking that they grow on trees just to justify your silly stance on Allen Craig.
    Is this a cameo or are you back for good?


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