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Thread: Most overrated player in baseball?

  1. #46
    Five Tool Fool jojo's Avatar
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    Re: Most overrated player in baseball?

    Quote Originally Posted by AtomicDumpling View Post
    Ichiro Suzuki is the most overrated player in baseball today and possibly in the history of baseball. Many people think he is one of the most elite hitters in baseball history but the stats paint a different picture.

    Ichiro has a .778 OPS for his career, which is 83rd out of only 187 active players with 3000 career plate appearances. That is "middle of the pack" for those not too good at math. He is 621st out of about 1500 players in history with 3000+ Plate Appearances. Not very impressive by any stretch of the imagination.

    Ichiro's career OPS+ is only 112, which makes him a little above average as a hitter in his career, yet some people think he is an automatic 1st ballot Hall of Famer. Boggles my mind.

    I realize some people still love them some good old-fashioned Batting Average, but even there his career AVG is only .3199, good for 53rd all-time and 4th among active players. Not really one of the very best ever.

    He rarely works a walk, which really puts a damper on his OBP. He has very little power (0.096 Isolated Power) and rarely gets extra base hits. Ichiro is a slap hitter, nothing more. He is simply not an elite hitter.

    Even though Ichiro came to the USA after playing several seasons in Japan he is still 7th among all active players in career Plate Appearances (and will be 5th by the end of the season), so it is not like he has been cheated for lack of opportunity. By the time he retires he will likely be in the top 50 All Time for most plate appearances. He has averaged 727 PAs per season, a very high number.

    Ichiro is a good all-around player. He is a slightly above average hitter, an excellent baserunner and an excellent defensive outfielder. But he is not worthy of being labelled one of the best players in the history of the game. There have been hundreds of players who were a LOT better than Ichiro Suzuki.

    Derek Jeter and Jacoby Ellsbury are also highly overrated for many of the same reasons.
    Since his rookie year in 2001, only 4 major leaguers have posted more WAR. Ichiro is a HOFer. The guys surrounding him represent guys who all have good cases for the HOF too IMHO. Its hard for me to call a HOFer overrated.
    "This isnít stats vs scouts - this is stats and scouts working together, building an organization that blends the best of both worlds. This is the blueprint for how a baseball organization should be run. And, whether the baseball men of the 20th century like it or not, this is where baseball is going."---Dave Cameron, U.S.S. Mariner

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  3. #47
    Member mdccclxix's Avatar
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    Re: Most overrated player in baseball?

    Quote Originally Posted by AtomicDumpling View Post
    Ichiro Suzuki is the most overrated player in baseball today and possibly in the history of baseball. Many people think he is one of the most elite hitters in baseball history but the stats paint a different picture.

    Ichiro has a .778 OPS for his career, which is 83rd out of only 187 active players with 3000 career plate appearances. That is "middle of the pack" for those not too good at math. He is 621st out of about 1500 players in history with 3000+ Plate Appearances. Not very impressive by any stretch of the imagination.

    Ichiro's career OPS+ is only 112, which makes him a little above average as a hitter in his career, yet some people think he is an automatic 1st ballot Hall of Famer. Boggles my mind.

    I realize some people still love them some good old-fashioned Batting Average, but even there his career AVG is only .3199, good for 53rd all-time and 4th among active players. Not really one of the very best ever.

    He rarely works a walk, which really puts a damper on his OBP. He has very little power (0.096 Isolated Power) and rarely gets extra base hits. Ichiro is a slap hitter, nothing more. He is simply not an elite hitter.

    Even though Ichiro came to the USA after playing several seasons in Japan he is still 7th among all active players in career Plate Appearances (and will be 5th by the end of the season), so it is not like he has been cheated for lack of opportunity. By the time he retires he will likely be in the top 50 All Time for most plate appearances. He has averaged 727 PAs per season, a very high number.

    Ichiro is a good all-around player. He is a slightly above average hitter, an excellent baserunner and an excellent defensive outfielder. But he is not worthy of being labelled one of the best players in the history of the game. There have been hundreds of players who were a LOT better than Ichiro Suzuki.

    Derek Jeter and Jacoby Ellsbury are also highly overrated for many of the same reasons.
    I'm sorry, but it's not the OPS of Fame. Ichiro is deserving of the HOF by many other measures in terms of hit totals, ASGs, defense, etc.

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  5. #48
    Five Tool Fool jojo's Avatar
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    Re: Most overrated player in baseball?

    Quote Originally Posted by brad1176 View Post
    Do you consider Pete Rose highly overrated then?

    Rose's career:
    OPS .784
    OPS+ 118
    OBP .375
    BA .303
    SLG .409

    Ichiro's career:
    OPS .778
    OPS+ 112
    OBP .362
    BA .320
    SLG .416



    Not being argumenative, just like to get your take on this.
    And Ichiro played in an extreme environment too which really isn't adequately handled by the blunt treatment of park effects as currently applied.
    "This isnít stats vs scouts - this is stats and scouts working together, building an organization that blends the best of both worlds. This is the blueprint for how a baseball organization should be run. And, whether the baseball men of the 20th century like it or not, this is where baseball is going."---Dave Cameron, U.S.S. Mariner

  6. #49
    Pre-tty, pre-tty good!! MWM's Avatar
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    Re: Most overrated player in baseball?

    Over-rated players are going to be great players in many cases. Jeter was always my immediate response to that question over the years, but I've still grown to really like him and admire the career he's had. He's been a superb baseball player and has had a stellar career. The over-rated tag comes not from him not being a great player, but the degree to which the national sports media built him up. He was never as good as he was made out to be, but that does not mean he wasn't a great ballplayer.
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    KungFu Fighter AtomicDumpling's Avatar
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    Re: Most overrated player in baseball?

    Quote Originally Posted by brad1176 View Post
    Do you consider Pete Rose highly overrated then?

    Rose's career:
    OPS .784
    OPS+ 118
    OBP .375
    BA .303
    SLG .409

    Ichiro's career:
    OPS .778
    OPS+ 112
    OBP .362
    BA .320
    SLG .416



    Not being argumenative, just like to get your take on this.
    Yes I do. Both are overrated for the same reasons.

    Incidentally, Ichiro gets extra credit in his OPS+ for playing in pitchers' park in Seattle most of his career. But keep in mind that Ichiro was actually perfectly suited for that ballpark and it actually helped him while hurting the slugger types. Ichiro's OPS was slightly higher at home than on the road because Safeco is a perfect haven for slap-hitters.

  9. #51
    5.3 Posts Abv Replacement BluegrassRedleg's Avatar
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    Re: Most overrated player in baseball?

    Quote Originally Posted by MWM View Post
    Over-rated players are going to be great players in many cases. Jeter was always my immediate response to that question over the years, but I've still grown to really like him and admire the career he's had. He's been a superb baseball player and has had a stellar career. The over-rated tag comes not from him not being a great player, but the degree to which the national sports media built him up. He was never as good as he was made out to be, but that does not mean he wasn't a great ballplayer.
    That's what I was getting at. And, like you, I have also grown to appreciate him. He's had a great career, but the NY factor and the rings have always helped elevate his stature.

    I would have said the same thing about Pete Rose the last 5-6 years he hung on to chase Cobb's record.
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  10. #52
    5.3 Posts Abv Replacement BluegrassRedleg's Avatar
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    Re: Most overrated player in baseball?

    Quote Originally Posted by AtomicDumpling View Post
    Yes I do. Both are overrated for the same reasons.

    Incidentally, Ichiro gets extra credit in his OPS+ for playing in pitchers' park in Seattle most of his career. But keep in mind that Ichiro was actually perfectly suited for that ballpark and it actually helped him while hurting the slugger types. Ichiro's OPS was slightly higher at home than on the road because Safeco is a perfect haven for slap-hitters.
    Also a vastly different game when Rose was playing. Fewer teams. Pitching not as diluted. Bigger parks (for the most part) with huge fences. Who knows how his OPS would have looked playing in the Great American Bandbox.
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  11. #53
    KungFu Fighter AtomicDumpling's Avatar
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    Re: Most overrated player in baseball?

    Quote Originally Posted by BluegrassRedleg View Post
    Also a vastly different game when Rose was playing. Fewer teams. Pitching not as diluted. Bigger parks (for the most part) with huge fences. Who knows how his OPS would have looked playing in the Great American Bandbox.
    Yes it sure was a different game then. Big fields with ultra-fast Astroturf favored slap hitters more than sluggers. I think Pete was perfectly suited to his era.

    I think pitching is much tougher to hit now than it was in the 70's. Pitchers throw harder now, they throw a wider variety of pitches on average, when they get hurt they get repaired instead of retiring, and the pool of players is much larger now than it was then (population has grown much faster than the # of teams, recruiting is now worldwide to a greater extent).

  12. #54
    Member Tom Servo's Avatar
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    Re: Most overrated player in baseball?

    Over the last two seasons Adrian Gonzalez has hit .299/.345/.461/.806, which by itself is a respectable line but for a guy getting his money, recognition, and reputation, it's a high tumble down from his .306/.403/.536/.940 line from 2009-2011.
    "Since I've been with the Reds in 1989, we've never had a farm system this loaded," Bowden said. "If we were the New York Yankees and had unlimited dollars, we could have traded for Colon, (Jeff) Weaver, Rolen, (Cliff) Floyd, (Kenny) Rogers and Finley and gotten them all -- and still held onto our top five prospects. That's an amazing statement."

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    5.3 Posts Abv Replacement BluegrassRedleg's Avatar
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    Re: Most overrated player in baseball?

    Quote Originally Posted by AtomicDumpling View Post
    Yes it sure was a different game then. Big fields with ultra-fast Astroturf favored slap hitters more than sluggers. I think Pete was perfectly suited to his era.

    I think pitching is much tougher to hit now than it was in the 70's. Pitchers throw harder now, they throw a wider variety of pitches on average, when they get hurt they get repaired instead of retiring, and the pool of players is much larger now than it was then (population has grown much faster than the # of teams, recruiting is now worldwide to a greater extent).
    Maybe so. I think there's some +/- to that whole generational debate. Bullpen use is a lot different, too, since the prime of Pete's career, although I'm not sure how much that would have affected a hitter like him.
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  14. #56
    KungFu Fighter AtomicDumpling's Avatar
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    Re: Most overrated player in baseball?

    Quote Originally Posted by BluegrassRedleg View Post
    Maybe so. I think there's some +/- to that whole generational debate. Bullpen use is a lot different, too, since the prime of Pete's career, although I'm not sure how much that would have affected a hitter like him.
    It probably would affect him less than other hitters because of his quick, compact swing.

  15. #57
    Member klw's Avatar
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    Re: Most overrated player in baseball?

    My vote goes to Zack Greinke. His last 3 seasons he has been outperformed by Kyle Lohse yet was just signed for 6 years and has the next 5 all at 25+ million per year. That is not even delving into the haul Milwaukee got for the rental of Greinke by the Angels.

    http://www.baseball-reference.com/pl...reinza01.shtml


    Lohse for comparison
    http://www.baseball-reference.com/pl...ohseky01.shtml

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  17. #58
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    Re: Most overrated player in baseball?

    Quote Originally Posted by AtomicDumpling View Post
    Incidentally, Ichiro gets extra credit in his OPS+ for playing in pitchers' park in Seattle most of his career. But keep in mind that Ichiro was actually perfectly suited for that ballpark and it actually helped him while hurting the slugger types. Ichiro's OPS was slightly higher at home than on the road because Safeco is a perfect haven for slap-hitters.
    If this were actually true, one would have to throw out any park adjusted metrics concerning a discussion about Ichiro.
    "This isnít stats vs scouts - this is stats and scouts working together, building an organization that blends the best of both worlds. This is the blueprint for how a baseball organization should be run. And, whether the baseball men of the 20th century like it or not, this is where baseball is going."---Dave Cameron, U.S.S. Mariner

  18. #59
    Churlish Johnny Footstool's Avatar
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    Re: Most overrated player in baseball?

    You can practically see the PEDs dripping off Ellsbury's 2011 season.
    "I prefer books and movies where the conflict isn't of the extreme cannibal apocalypse variety I guess." Redsfaithful

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    Re: Most overrated player in baseball?

    Quote Originally Posted by Tom Servo View Post
    Over the last two seasons Adrian Gonzalez has hit .299/.345/.461/.806, which by itself is a respectable line but for a guy getting his money, recognition, and reputation, it's a high tumble down from his .306/.403/.536/.940 line from 2009-2011.
    Gonzalez is a close second behind Fielder in my book.


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