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Thread: Most overrated player in baseball?

  1. #151
    Member redsfandan's Avatar
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    Re: Most overrated player in baseball?

    Quote Originally Posted by Tom Servo View Post
    I just don't see Votto being a pumpkin several years from now. Worst case scenario, in my opinion, is that he becomes Todd Helton.
    From 2018 to 2023 Joey will make $25M/yr. He'll be 34 at the start of 2018, 39 in 2023. In that same period (34-39) Helton has had an .802 ops. That's not that great especially from a 1st baseman that makes alot of money.

    So, I sure hope he's not another Helton cuz then he'd be a player that only plays first, isn't an elite hitter anymore, and (even with a bigger payroll) he's still going to have a big contract.
    "Now that's a real shame when folks be throwin' away a perfectly good white boy like that."

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  3. #152
    Member Tom Servo's Avatar
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    Re: Most overrated player in baseball?

    Quote Originally Posted by redsfandan View Post
    From 2018 to 2023 Joey will make $25M/yr. He'll be 34 at the start of 2018, 39 in 2023. In that same period (34-39) Helton has had an .802 ops. That's not that great especially from a 1st baseman that makes alot of money.

    So, I sure hope he's not another Helton cuz then he'd be a player that only plays first, isn't an elite hitter anymore, and (even with a bigger payroll) he's still going to have a big contract.
    You're right it's not great, that's why it is the worst case scenario. There are worse possibilities though, such as Ryan Howard and his .752 OPS over his age 32 and 33 seasons.

    What I don't get is the sudden degree to which some Reds fans have turned on Votto. Hey, I get baseball is 'what have you done for me lately', but it is as though 2008-2012 never happened and a 2013 where Votto has merely been tremendous and a notch below excellent means he is overrated and he won't ever hit more HR's again and he's not clutch and on and on and on.

    If you want to see a guy who went from excellent to legitmately overrated, check out my point about Adrian Gonzalez earlier.

    Quote Originally Posted by Tom Servo View Post
    Over the last two seasons Adrian Gonzalez has hit .299/.345/.461/.806, which by itself is a respectable line but for a guy getting his money, recognition, and reputation, it's a high tumble down from his .306/.403/.536/.940 line from 2009-2011.
    In the time since I posted that, that line has now fallen to .296/.341/.458/.799, so his OPS over the past two seasons is now below .800.
    Last edited by Tom Servo; 08-30-2013 at 03:07 AM.
    "Since I've been with the Reds in 1989, we've never had a farm system this loaded," Bowden said. "If we were the New York Yankees and had unlimited dollars, we could have traded for Colon, (Jeff) Weaver, Rolen, (Cliff) Floyd, (Kenny) Rogers and Finley and gotten them all -- and still held onto our top five prospects. That's an amazing statement."

  4. #153
    Member redsfandan's Avatar
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    Re: Most overrated player in baseball?

    Quote Originally Posted by Tom Servo View Post
    You're right it's not great, that's why it is the worst case scenario. There are worse possibilities though, such as Ryan Howard and his .752 OPS over his age 32 and 33 seasons.

    What I don't get is the sudden degree to which some Reds fans have turned on Votto. Hey, I get baseball is 'what have you done for me lately', but it is as though 2008-2012 never happened and a 2013 where Votto has merely been tremendous and a notch below excellent means he is overrated and he won't ever hit more HR's again and he's not clutch and on and on and on.

    If you want to see a guy who went from excellent to legitmately overrated, check out my point about Adrian Gonzalez earlier.


    In the time since I posted that, that line has now fallen to .296/.341/.458/.799, so his OPS over the past two seasons is now below .800.
    Honestly, I don't think any of the four (Voto, Helton, Gonzalez, or Howard) are overrated. Votto is elite. The other three aren't. I think most fans realize those three players aren't what they used to be. With Votto part of it is his slg% (which is still good but has slipped) and the rest is just perception due to lack of rbi.
    "Now that's a real shame when folks be throwin' away a perfectly good white boy like that."

  5. #154
    One and a half men Patrick Bateman's Avatar
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    Re: Most overrated player in baseball?

    Quote Originally Posted by redsfandan View Post
    Not too long ago in this thread 757690 said that "1B and LF are sluggers positions". Well, sure, Votto's still elite right now. But his slugging % needs to stop going down or calling him overrated will make more sense.
    The question isn't "who will become the most overrated player in basbeall". The question is, who is it now.

    Falling slugging or not, Votto is currently one of the most valuable players in baseball. Maybe his slugging will actually increase as he continues to learn how to be pitched around. I'm certainly not betting against the guy.

  6. #155
    Member RadfordVA's Avatar
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    Re: Most overrated player in baseball?

    Quote Originally Posted by Patrick Bateman View Post
    The question isn't "who will become the most overrated player in basbeall". The question is, who is it now.

    Falling slugging or not, Votto is currently one of the most valuable players in baseball. Maybe his slugging will actually increase as he continues to learn how to be pitched around. I'm certainly not betting against the guy.
    He has the 4th highest slugging among 1B this season. The days were every 1st baseman hits 30 HR are long gone now. If people only watch the Reds I guess they do not realize power is in a league wide shortage.

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  8. #156
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    Re: Most overrated player in baseball?

    Quote Originally Posted by Tom Servo View Post
    What I don't get is the sudden degree to which some Reds fans have turned on Votto. Hey, I get baseball is 'what have you done for me lately', but it is as though 2008-2012 never happened and a 2013 where Votto has merely been tremendous and a notch below excellent means he is overrated and he won't ever hit more HR's again and he's not clutch and on and on and on.
    I know there are a few fickle folks out there that are hot and cold on any Reds hot topic issue like Votto.

    I think most folks including myself, are worried of when 2018 rolls around, perhaps he's not a $25 Mil player (history shows us that this tends to be the trend), and the team can't afford other pieces to balance that out. That's alot of $$$ to be shelling out for a player that will potentially not be your number 1 offensive contributor, maybe not even defensive, and you are payroll limited because you are in a mid-size market.

    Votto is a solid player, a warrior, and as long as he stays healthy will be a big piece of the Reds offense for years to come..... the big burning question is just how long, and hope that he never becomes a burden.

    Can you imagine the nightmare St Louis would have had if they gave Pujols a votto like contract? the angels can't imagine it.... they got money to burn!

  9. #157
    RaisorZone Raisor's Avatar
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    Re: Most overrated player in baseball?

    Worry about 2018 when it gets here, for tomorrow we may all die
    "But I do know Joey's sister indirectly (or foster sister) and I have heard stories of Joey being into shopping, designer wear, fancy coffees, and pedicures."

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  11. #158
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    Re: Most overrated player in baseball?

    Quote Originally Posted by RedTeamGo! View Post
    I personally will be shocked if it is not, especially with the global economic crisis that will most likely hit in the next 2-3 years.


    what the hell, man.
    They don't think it be like it is, but it do.
    Quote Originally Posted by Larry Schuler View Post
    He has also taught me that even when the Reds win it is important to focus on the fact that they could have lost.

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  13. #159
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    Re: Most overrated player in baseball?

    I don't remember anyone worrying about how much Votto was getting paid when he won the MVP.

    Joey Votto's 2010 salary: $525,000

    What a bargain!

    And just for the record, I think Joey Votto is going to be worth every penny of his contract.

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  15. #160
    Flash the leather! _Sir_Charles_'s Avatar
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    Re: Most overrated player in baseball?

    Quote Originally Posted by Raisor View Post
    Worry about 2018 when it gets here, for tomorrow we may all die

    Always finding the silver lining.
    2014 predictions:
    99-63 WS champs (Cards take 2nd WC, Mil 3rd, Pit 4th, Chi 5th)
    Bruce/Votto neck and neck MVP race (neither takes it)
    Bailey CYA winner
    Hamilton ROY & GG

  16. #161
    RaisorZone Raisor's Avatar
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    Re: Most overrated player in baseball?

    Quote Originally Posted by _Sir_Charles_ View Post
    Always finding the silver lining.
    Alright, the day AFTER tomorrow. Happy?
    "But I do know Joey's sister indirectly (or foster sister) and I have heard stories of Joey being into shopping, designer wear, fancy coffees, and pedicures."

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  18. #162
    Member redsfandan's Avatar
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    Re: Most overrated player in baseball?

    Quote Originally Posted by Patrick Bateman View Post
    The question isn't "who will become the most overrated player in basbeall". The question is, who is it now.

    Falling slugging or not, Votto is currently one of the most valuable players in baseball. Maybe his slugging will actually increase as he continues to learn how to be pitched around. I'm certainly not betting against the guy.
    Someone else posted that they thought Votto was overrated. It wasn't me. I was merely commenting on it.

    If that's not ok with you then I'm so sowy!!!!
    "Now that's a real shame when folks be throwin' away a perfectly good white boy like that."

  19. #163
    Member redsfandan's Avatar
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    Re: Most overrated player in baseball?

    Quote Originally Posted by Raisor View Post
    Worry about 2018 when it gets here, for tomorrow we may all die
    Brilliant philosophy. Simply brilliant. That's a little like saying people should worry about their retirement when it gets here. To each their own I guess.
    "Now that's a real shame when folks be throwin' away a perfectly good white boy like that."

  20. #164
    Member 757690's Avatar
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    Re: Most overrated player in baseball?

    Quote Originally Posted by redsfandan View Post
    From 2018 to 2023 Joey will make $25M/yr. He'll be 34 at the start of 2018, 39 in 2023. In that same period (34-39) Helton has had an .802 ops. That's not that great especially from a 1st baseman that makes alot of money.

    So, I sure hope he's not another Helton cuz then he'd be a player that only plays first, isn't an elite hitter anymore, and (even with a bigger payroll) he's still going to have a big contract.
    I think the Reds are willing to take the chance that Votto doesn't provide the necessarry production to justify his salary from 2018-2023. That's the price of guaranteeing that he's a Red from 2012-2017 and providing much more production than his salary during those years.
    "Man, the pitch looks fast, even in slow motion." Thom Brennaman on Chapman's fastball.

  21. #165
    One and a half men Patrick Bateman's Avatar
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    Re: Most overrated player in baseball?

    Quote Originally Posted by redsfandan View Post
    Someone else posted that they thought Votto was overrated. It wasn't me. I was merely commenting on it.

    If that's not ok with you then I'm so sowy!!!!
    I think you read further into my post than I intended.

    I simply responded to a post of yours where you quoted my post on the subject. If you weren't meaning to respond to me, then you probably shouldn't have quoted my post.


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