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Thread: Joey Votto and his magically shrinking SLG%

  1. #16
    RaisorZone Raisor's Avatar
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    Re: Joey Votto and his magically shrinking SLG%

    Votto's down year is better than nearly every other NL player's best year.
    "But I do know Joey's sister indirectly (or foster sister) and I have heard stories of Joey being into shopping, designer wear, fancy coffees, and pedicures."

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  4. #17
    Haunted by walks
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    Re: Joey Votto and his magically shrinking SLG%

    The debate always comes down to the same thing: How to measure what a player is personally responsible for. One side downplays RBIs because someone else has to get on in front of you. The other side downplays OBP because someone else has to do the job behind you.

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    Re: Joey Votto and his magically shrinking SLG%

    Quote Originally Posted by BCubb2003 View Post
    The debate always comes down to the same thing: How to measure what a player is personally responsible for. One side downplays RBIs because someone else has to get on in front of you. The other side downplays OBP because someone else has to do the job behind you.
    The debate should never come down to that though. Baseball isn't an individual sport, it's a team sport. The strategy needed to win a baseball game has been consistent since the game's creation. Get 'em, Get 'em over, Get 'em in. Each player is personally responsible for the role that they play in that strategy.

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    Re: Joey Votto and his magically shrinking SLG%

    Quote Originally Posted by Raisor View Post
    Jory's OBP more than makes up for the diminishing power
    I agree, but the fact that he is diminished at anything with over a decade and $225MM left on his contract is cause for concern. I have a sinking feeling his contract is going be a gigantic albatross for the Reds franchise over the last three to five years of it's term.

  7. #20
    nothing more than a fan Always Red's Avatar
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    Re: Joey Votto and his magically shrinking SLG%

    Quote Originally Posted by Steve4192 View Post
    I agree, but the fact that he is diminished at anything with over a decade and $225MM left on his contract is cause for concern. I have a sinking feeling his contract is going be a gigantic albatross for the Reds franchise over the last three to five years of it's term.
    With the huge amounts of TV money flowing into the game today and in the near future, I think that contract will be no problem at all, unless Votto goes into Josh Hamilton mode right now.

    Also, I think we need to continue to compare Vottos numbers to the rest of MLB this year, when hitting is down league wide, rather than solely compare his numbers this year to numbers he's put up in the past. Things are different in baseball this year than in 2010 when he was MVP.

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  9. #21
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    Re: Joey Votto and his magically shrinking SLG%

    Quote Originally Posted by BCubb2003 View Post
    The debate always comes down to the same thing: How to measure what a player is personally responsible for. One side downplays RBIs because someone else has to get on in front of you. The other side downplays OBP because someone else has to do the job behind you.
    Joey's job is to not make outs and hit the ball with authority. He's better than anyone in the game at the first and is well above-average at the second. Runs and RBIs are merely byproducts of doing his job. If Joey is doing his job and the runs/RBI are not piling up, it's because someone else is not doing their job.

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  11. #22
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    Re: Joey Votto and his magically shrinking SLG%

    Quote Originally Posted by Always Red View Post
    I think we need to continue to compare Vottos numbers to the rest of MLB this year, when hitting is down league wide, rather than solely compare his numbers this year to numbers he's put up in the past. Things are different in baseball this year than in 2010 when he was MVP.
    I have no complaints about Joey's performance this year. He leads the league in plate appearances, walks, intentional walks, times on base, OBP, runs created and is more than respectable in SLG and OPS.

    I don't hold him responsible for the low RBI total. His RISP and his men on base splits are pretty close to his overall numbers (RISP slightly better, MoB slightly worse). That is all you can ask of a guy. The rest is up to his teammates.

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    Re: Joey Votto and his magically shrinking SLG%

    Quote Originally Posted by BCubb2003 View Post
    The debate always comes down to the same thing: How to measure what a player is personally responsible for. One side downplays RBIs because someone else has to get on in front of you. The other side downplays OBP because someone else has to do the job behind you.
    Joey Votto would be a lot more valuable if he had Joey Votto hitting in front of him and behind him.

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  15. #24
    Member Tom Servo's Avatar
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    Re: Joey Votto and his magically shrinking SLG%

    The power will be back.
    "Since I've been with the Reds in 1989, we've never had a farm system this loaded," Bowden said. "If we were the New York Yankees and had unlimited dollars, we could have traded for Colon, (Jeff) Weaver, Rolen, (Cliff) Floyd, (Kenny) Rogers and Finley and gotten them all -- and still held onto our top five prospects. That's an amazing statement."

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    Re: Joey Votto and his magically shrinking SLG%

    Quote Originally Posted by RedsBaron View Post
    I can recall that in 2012, before Joey was injured, at one point it appeared he might threaten the single season record for doubles (67). His power does seem to be diminshed.
    He obviously hasn't been the same player since the knee injury, and I don't know how anyone could deny that.
    "I talked to an advance scout that told me if Joey Votto and Albert Pujols were on the same team he'd advise his team to do the unthinkable...pitch around Votto to get to Pujols." - Buster Olney, ESPN

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  19. #26
    Member Norm Chortleton's Avatar
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    Re: Joey Votto and his magically shrinking SLG%

    Quote Originally Posted by Tom Servo View Post
    The power will be back.
    I'm more worried about his speed and agility. He just seems clumsy a lot of the time on the bases and on defense.*


    *If his power comes back, thoses things aren't as important.
    Last edited by Norm Chortleton; 08-24-2013 at 12:24 PM.

  20. #27
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    Re: Joey Votto and his magically shrinking SLG%

    Quote Originally Posted by sigep529 View Post
    Joey Votto would be a lot more valuable if he had Joey Votto hitting in front of him and behind him.
    Eight Joey Vottos in the lineup would have some issues on defense, but I'd be willing to go with that.

  21. #28
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    Re: Joey Votto and his magically shrinking SLG%

    Here's something I've considered...

    Votto does a lot of tactics to avoid striking out; chokes up, fouls off tough pitches, etc. I wish he would just let loose more often on 2 strikes. Avoiding the K seems to not work for him because he's still not exactly avoiding the strike out (believe pacing for career high).

    But then I look at his numbers with 2 strikes vs. League Avg.

    NL w/2 strikes: .174/.239/.259/.498
    Votto w/2 strikes: .180/.300/.237/.537
    Votto w/2 strikes in 2012: .256/.394/.390/.784 (This is just ridiculous) Maybe this is why our expectations are high for him with 2 k's. Last year and this year, just about 50% of his PA's had 2 strikes in them.

    Votto's OBP is 61 points higher than league avg, so it does work a bit, though he is hitting for less power than the league. Also for the record, I don't really believe "league avg" is ever a good comparison when talking about a super star caliber player. NL league avg includes pitchers, and also just a ton of really bad players. If you haven't looked lately, just look at overall league average numbers and you'll see how bad "the average" is.

    Votto when ahead: .353/.583/.607/1.190
    Votto when behind: .241/.246/.316/.562

    I think Bruce is having a very good season, so I wanted to see what his numbers were like compared to Votto's in these situations because I don't think Bruce really has a 2 k approach (which I'm cool with):

    Bruce w/2 strikes: .165/.221/.311/.532
    Bruce when ahead: .363/.490/.637/1.127
    Bruce when behind: .160/.166/.313/.479

    Bruce has 7 HR with 2 strikes vs. Votto's 1, but over all, you'd take Votto's results (OBP is 79 points higher).

    Bruce when behind in the count is pretty much awful, Votto at least gives you something.

    Conclusion: I have no idea? Votto is really good, should probably continue to do what he's doing and we'll all be happy in 10 years? Sorry if this post was confusing and lacked direction.
    Last edited by TOBTTReds; 08-24-2013 at 12:57 PM.

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    Re: Joey Votto and his magically shrinking SLG%

    Quote Originally Posted by TOBTTReds View Post
    Here's something I've considered...

    Votto does a lot of tactics to avoid striking out; chokes up, fouls off tough pitches, etc. I wish he would just let loose more often on 2 strikes. Avoiding the K seems to not work for him because he's still not exactly avoiding the strike out (believe pacing for career high).

    But then I look at his numbers with 2 strikes vs. League Avg.

    NL w/2 strikes: .174/.239/.259/.498
    Votto w/2 strikes: .180/.300/.237/.537
    Votto w/2 strikes in 2012: .256/.394/.390/.784 (This is just ridiculous) Maybe this is why our expectations are high for him with 2 k's. Last year and this year, just about 50% of his PA's had 2 strikes in them.

    Votto's OBP is 61 points higher than league avg, so it does work a bit, though he is hitting for less power than the league. Also for the record, I don't really believe "league avg" is ever a good comparison when talking about a super star caliber player. NL league avg includes pitchers, and also just a ton of really bad players. If you haven't looked lately, just look at overall league average numbers and you'll see how bad "the average" is.

    Votto when ahead: .353/.583/.607/1.190
    Votto when behind: .241/.246/.316/.562

    I think Bruce is having a very good season, so I wanted to see what his numbers were like compared to Votto's in these situations because I don't think Bruce really has a 2 k approach (which I'm cool with):

    Bruce w/2 strikes: .165/.221/.311/.532
    Bruce when ahead: .363/.490/.637/1.127
    Bruce when behind: .160/.166/.313/.479

    Bruce has 7 HR with 2 strikes vs. Votto's 1, but over all, you'd take Votto's results (OBP is 79 points higher).

    Bruce when behind in the count is pretty much awful, Votto at least gives you something.

    Conclusion: I have no idea? Votto is really good, should probably continue to do what he's doing and we'll all be happy in 10 years? Sorry if this post was confusing and lacked direction.
    Choo w/2 strikes: .203/.344/.336/.680
    Choo when ahead: .399/.619/.662/1.281
    Choo when behind: .203/.250/.315/.565

    Choo has 6 HR with 2 strikes.

    This is one reason why Votto once said that Choo is the best player on the team.

  23. #30
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    Re: Joey Votto and his magically shrinking SLG%

    Quote Originally Posted by Steve4192 View Post
    Joey's job is to not make outs and hit the ball with authority. He's better than anyone in the game at the first and is well above-average at the second. Runs and RBIs are merely byproducts of doing his job. If Joey is doing his job and the runs/RBI are not piling up, it's because someone else is not doing their job.
    This is the exact problem with those who view OBP and walks as the complete answer to successful offense.

    I am not aware of any team in a long while where every hitter "does his job."

    The idea that walks are great because they avoid outs assumes the next guy and the next guy and the next guy will get on base too. Not reality in almost any lineup.

    So we have such things as middle order guys, who should do more. I think Votto does plenty and have no problem with him. Just a little low on the power this year, no big deal.

    Avoiding outs is a great theory -- but in the real world some players will make many outs and your main hitters must do more than just prolonging innings.
    Last edited by Kc61; 08-24-2013 at 04:05 PM.

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