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Thread: Votto is not the issue. (Buster Olney Explains)

  1. #16
    Waitin til next year bucksfan2's Avatar
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    Re: Votto is not the issue. (Buster Olney Explains)

    Quote Originally Posted by dubc47834 View Post
    I agree with most of what you are saying here, except about his power numbers. Since the beginning Votto has said he is not a power hitter, plus 21 HR's isn't nothing to sneeze at. I am a little dissappointed his double numbers are down, but I do think he'll be fine. I do think he takes more of those "GOOD" pitches than what Bonds did, whether it's working the count or what, I don't know. But anything at the plate I would tend to think that Joey knows what he is doing!
    For a player like Votto I think doubles are a good judge of power. He isn't going to be a guy who is going to turn many singles into doubles by raw speed. His doubles are more a result of well hit balls to the gaps or down the line. They will be a result of him driving the ball instead of a flare down the line. When I see his double numbers down to me it says he isn't driving the ball as well as he has in the past.

    I don't know when it became taboo to say that Joey Votto's numbers are down. I think its fair to say that this season has been a little disappointing so far and still think he is a great player.

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    Re: Votto is not the issue. (Buster Olney Explains)

    Quote Originally Posted by Edskin View Post
    I won't offer an opinion here, just an observation.

    Comparing Votto to the rest of our lineup is not the comparison people should be making. He should be compared to every other team's best hitter/biggest investment, etc. That is the fair comparison in my eyes.
    Don't think anyone is doing that, at least I wasn't. Obviously I don't expect others in the lineup to hit like Joey Votto and I wouldn't compare tham.

    My point is simply that Votto's leading the NL in OBP and is hitting over .300 and I wouldn't nit pick his offense when several other starting players are having such down offensive years.

    If folks are dissatisfied with the offense, the emphasis might be on those barely hitting .700 OPS or hitting below. Not on the guy over .900 with the seventh best OPS in the major leagues.

    Just a matter of where the emphasis might belong if one thinks the offense hasn't lived up to expectations.

    If one wants to compare Votto to Goldschmidt and Cabrera, that's a fine discussion, I was focusing on the Reds offense generally.
    Last edited by Kc61; 09-03-2013 at 12:52 PM.

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    Re: Votto is not the issue. (Buster Olney Explains)

    Quote Originally Posted by bucksfan2 View Post
    For a player like Votto I think doubles are a good judge of power. He isn't going to be a guy who is going to turn many singles into doubles by raw speed. His doubles are more a result of well hit balls to the gaps or down the line. They will be a result of him driving the ball instead of a flare down the line. When I see his double numbers down to me it says he isn't driving the ball as well as he has in the past.

    I don't know when it became taboo to say that Joey Votto's numbers are down. I think its fair to say that this season has been a little disappointing so far and still think he is a great player.
    In his MVP year he had 36 doubles, this year he has 27 doubles. I think it's fair to say he will probly finish around 30-32 doubles, just a guess. To me that's not a huge drop off. His power numbers have always kinda fluctuated. I think his power has been this year what it has been throughout his career. He is still driving the ball the opposite way. I do think he has struggled a little bit with the stikeout this year, 9 more and he will set a new personal mark. I think all in all Joey Votto is just fine. If we had a team full of Joey Votto type players we'd probly win about 110 games.

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    Waitin til next year bucksfan2's Avatar
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    Re: Votto is not the issue. (Buster Olney Explains)

    Quote Originally Posted by Kc61 View Post
    Don't think anyone is doing that, at least I wasn't. Obviously I don't expect others in the lineup to hit like Joey Votto and I wouldn't compare tham.

    My point is simply that Votto's leading the NL in OBP and is hitting over .300 and I wouldn't nit pick his offense when several other starting players are having such down offensive years.

    If folks are dissatisfied with the offense, the emphasis might be on those barely hitting .700 OPS or hitting below. Not on the guy over .900 with the seventh best OPS in the major leagues.

    Just a matter of where the emphasis might belong if one thinks the offense hasn't lived up to expectations.

    If one wants to compare Votto to Goldschmidt and Cabrera, that's a fine discussion, I was focusing on the Reds offense generally.
    If Cabrera were having the type of season Votto is having would we say its a disappointment?

    I don't understand why people get up in arms when you say that Votto is having a disappointing season compared to what he has done in the past. Its great he is 13th in SLG, but that also means there are 12 players who are better.

    I think this entire debate got taken out of context when the "he is paid to drive in runs not walk" comment began to surface. It isn't about RBI's and walks. Its about the standards that Votto has set over the course of his career that we compare him to. We shouldn't compare Votto to Adam LaRoche when talking about offense 1B should we?

    IMO for the Reds to really take the next step and go on a run to compete for the NL Central they need Votto to go into beast mode. They need their best hitter to start driving the ball all over the field. If at the end of the season we say Joey Votto had a good season well then ok. If we say Votto had a great finish then they are probably NL Central Champs.

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    Re: Votto is not the issue. (Buster Olney Explains)

    nm

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    Stat Wanker Hodiernus RedsManRick's Avatar
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    Re: Votto is not the issue. (Buster Olney Explains)

    The entirety of the problem is the focus on the type of production instead of the amount of it. It really is that simple. And it's not limited to Votto, it's a team-wide criticism that is really myopic.
    Games are won on run differential -- scoring more than your opponent. Runs are runs, scored or prevented they all count the same. Worry about scoring more and allowing fewer, not which positions contribute to which side of the equation or how "consistent" you are at your current level of performance.

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    Re: Votto is not the issue. (Buster Olney Explains)

    I also think theres a decent chance that Votto spent much of the first half with his knee still not at 100% and that we will hopefully see the power jump back up next year. It does seem like over the last month he has started hitting a lot more homeruns so maybe he just hasn't been 100% healthy until now.

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    Re: Votto is not the issue. (Buster Olney Explains)

    Quote Originally Posted by bucksfan2 View Post
    If Cabrera were having the type of season Votto is having would we say its a disappointment?
    What I don't get is when a guy isn't performing up to someone's standards they always use the guy having the amazing season as the sole baseline

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    Re: Votto is not the issue. (Buster Olney Explains)

    Alas, Buster, your words are falling on deaf ears.

    I cannot believe how many different ways we have discussed this topic on RZ... and there are still folks rattling on with the same faulty premise that Votto needs to be [insert some arbitrary and unreasonable standard of performance] in order to not be a "disappointment."

    Votto. Is. Fine.

    End of story.

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    Re: Votto is not the issue. (Buster Olney Explains)

    Quote Originally Posted by bucksfan2 View Post

    IMO for the Reds to really take the next step and go on a run to compete for the NL Central they need Votto to go into beast mode. They need their best hitter to start driving the ball all over the field. If at the end of the season we say Joey Votto had a good season well then ok. If we say Votto had a great finish then they are probably NL Central Champs.
    But that's the shame of it. The Reds have two unbelievable OBP guys, each of whom has also put up prettty good power numbers this year. Yet the team's offense is so uneven that the only way fans (myself included) can conceive of a division title is for one of those two guys to go into "beast mode." Or maybe Bruce.

    Very few great players have MVP seasons every year. In Joey's case, he probably hasn't. But look what he's accomplished for a "not perfect" season. .928 OPS, seventh in the major leagues. Justy shy of .500 SLG. NL leading OBP.

    The other starters on the team, besides the "big three" have OPS of .741, .736, .703, .671 and .661. Wouldn't it be best for the team if a few of them were in the high .700s? Instead of asking Votto to go into "beast mode?"

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    Re: Votto is not the issue. (Buster Olney Explains)

    This is one of those debates that will never derive at a conclusion because people have different philosophical worldviews on run scoring. Thus, they will continue to talk past each other.

    It's like arguing something is a sin according to religious beliefs if the person you're arguing with doesn't believe in the higher power or the religious text to begin with. It's based on an (at least in their mind) an irrelevant premise. This subject is going to require a conceptual belief system that people see eye to eye on before there will ever be a mutual understanding.
    "No matter how good you are, you're going to lose one-third of your games. No matter how bad you are you're going to win one-third of your games. It's the other third that makes the difference." ~Tommy Lasorda

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    Re: Votto is not the issue. (Buster Olney Explains)

    Quote Originally Posted by Kc61 View Post
    But that's the shame of it. The Reds have two unbelievable OBP guys, each of whom has also put up prettty good power numbers this year. Yet the team's offense is so uneven that the only way fans (myself included) can conceive of a division title is for one of those two guys to go into "beast mode." Or maybe Bruce.

    Very few great players have MVP seasons every year. In Joey's case, he probably hasn't. But look what he's accomplished for a "not perfect" season. .928 OPS, seventh in the major leagues. Justy shy of .500 SLG. NL leading OBP.

    The other starters on the team, besides the "big three" have OPS of .741, .736, .703, .671 and .661. Wouldn't it be best for the team if a few of them were in the high .700s? Instead of asking Votto to go into "beast mode?"
    Of course it would be better if any of them were better, but which do you think is more realistic? Votto going into "beast mode" again or Cozart, Frazier, Mes, Heisey, etc turning into something they've never been in the majors at any point?

    Overall though, I'm not really sure why we're looking for someone to blame in the first place. Nothing bad has even happened. Save that for the 20 teams who don't make the playoffs or at least put it on hold until we're eliminated.

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    Waitin til next year bucksfan2's Avatar
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    Re: Votto is not the issue. (Buster Olney Explains)

    Quote Originally Posted by westofyou View Post
    What I don't get is when a guy isn't performing up to someone's standards they always use the guy having the amazing season as the sole baseline
    Who should we compare Votto to? The high standards that he set? Guys who are perennial MVP candidates? Or just pretty good ball players?

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    Re: Votto is not the issue. (Buster Olney Explains)

    Quote Originally Posted by bucksfan2 View Post
    Who should we compare Votto to? The high standards that he set? Guys who are perennial MVP candidates? Or just pretty good ball players?
    How about comparing him with the other players in the NL to start?

    Where he ranks third in OPS.
    "But I do know Joey's sister indirectly (or foster sister) and I have heard stories of Joey being into shopping, designer wear, fancy coffees, and pedicures."

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  25. #30
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    Re: Votto is not the issue. (Buster Olney Explains)

    Quote Originally Posted by Raisor View Post
    How about comparing him with the other players in the NL to start?

    Where he ranks third in OPS.
    Is it acceptable to say a player is a great player but had a down year?


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