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Thread: Votto is not the issue. (Buster Olney Explains)

  1. #31
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    Re: Votto is not the issue. (Buster Olney Explains)

    Quote Originally Posted by bucksfan2 View Post
    For a player like Votto I think doubles are a good judge of power. He isn't going to be a guy who is going to turn many singles into doubles by raw speed. His doubles are more a result of well hit balls to the gaps or down the line. They will be a result of him driving the ball instead of a flare down the line. When I see his double numbers down to me it says he isn't driving the ball as well as he has in the past.

    I don't know when it became taboo to say that Joey Votto's numbers are down. I think its fair to say that this season has been a little disappointing so far and still think he is a great player.
    I think doubles are a questionable way to evaluate really any player: As pointed out here, the rate at which a player hits doubles varies widely from year to year, such that the number of doubles the player hits in any one year isn't much of an indication of his overall talent level. If Votto's (or any player's) doubles are down this year (or any other year), I'd suspect it's due more to year-to-year variation than a legitimate decline in power.

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  4. #32
    RaisorZone Raisor's Avatar
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    Re: Votto is not the issue. (Buster Olney Explains)

    Quote Originally Posted by bucksfan2 View Post
    Is it acceptable to say a player is a great player but had a down year?
    Sure. Depends on what you're trying to compare him to.

    Let me put it this way, lets say that Joey's stats were the exact same as they were now, but instead on being third in the NL in OPS he was first or even 30th.

    Would there be a difference?
    "But I do know Joey's sister indirectly (or foster sister) and I have heard stories of Joey being into shopping, designer wear, fancy coffees, and pedicures."

  5. #33
    Member Wonderful Monds's Avatar
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    Re: Votto is not the issue. (Buster Olney Explains)

    I think it's entirely possible that Joey could be all of these things:
    * having a very good to great year
    * not the problem
    * still kind of a disappointment this year

    I think it's very fair to point out that, despite the fact that he's getting on base at an amazing rate and hitting for pretty decent power, he has a lot of room for improvement. I think it's also fair to say that for him to be worth every penny, and for the Reds to reach their potential, he has to hit for more power as he's capable of.

    If he hits below .300 or SLGs under .500, I think he will very much have been something of a let down this year.
    They don't think it be like it is, but it do.
    Quote Originally Posted by Larry Schuler View Post
    He has also taught me that even when the Reds win it is important to focus on the fact that they could have lost.

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    Waitin til next year bucksfan2's Avatar
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    Re: Votto is not the issue. (Buster Olney Explains)

    Quote Originally Posted by Raisor View Post
    Sure. Depends on what you're trying to compare him to.

    Let me put it this way, lets say that Joey's stats were the exact same as they were now, but instead on being third in the NL in OPS he was first or even 30th.

    Would there be a difference?
    Joey's OPS+ is at its lowest point since his rookie season. I think it would be fair to say that his 2013 doesn't stack up to his 2012 and 2010 seasons, no?

    He is still a damn good baseball player but isn't it fair to say it wasn't one of his better seasons?

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    RaisorZone Raisor's Avatar
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    Re: Votto is not the issue. (Buster Olney Explains)

    Quote Originally Posted by bucksfan2 View Post
    Joey's OPS+ is at its lowest point since his rookie season. I think it would be fair to say that his 2013 doesn't stack up to his 2012 and 2010 seasons, no?

    He is still a damn good baseball player but isn't it fair to say it wasn't one of his better seasons?
    First, season isn't over yet.

    Second, his OPS+ is essentially the same as his 09 and 11 seasons and right at his career average.

    07 127
    08 125
    09 156
    10 171
    11 155
    12 175
    13 152
    Career 154
    "But I do know Joey's sister indirectly (or foster sister) and I have heard stories of Joey being into shopping, designer wear, fancy coffees, and pedicures."

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    Always Red (09-03-2013), RedEye (09-03-2013)

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    Re: Votto is not the issue. (Buster Olney Explains)

    Quote Originally Posted by bucksfan2 View Post
    Joey's OPS+ is at its lowest point since his rookie season. I think it would be fair to say that his 2013 doesn't stack up to his 2012 and 2010 seasons, no?

    He is still a damn good baseball player but isn't it fair to say it wasn't one of his better seasons?
    Any criticism of Votto is not allowed on here. BP and Dusty well thats another story.

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    Re: Votto is not the issue. (Buster Olney Explains)

    he is not the issue?

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    Re: Votto is not the issue. (Buster Olney Explains)

    Two small things that stick out about Joey.....

    Ground balls are up, fly balls are down.

    Other than last year...his swing % inside the zone is down.

    2007...74
    2008...73
    2009...74
    2010...73
    2011...69
    2012...62
    2013...66.6
    Baseball is like church. Many attend, few understand

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    Re: Votto is not the issue. (Buster Olney Explains)

    Quote Originally Posted by xsteve1 View Post
    Any criticism of Votto is not allowed on here. BP and Dusty well thats another story.
    Really?

    I believe anyone is fair game as long as a ridiculous statements about watching Matt Carpenter or comparing a guy to a guy in another league is all the critic can muster.

    As far as "what's allowed" and what's not stick around for awhile before trying to create myths

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    Cursh14 (09-03-2013)

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    Making sense of it all Matt700wlw's Avatar
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    Re: Votto is not the issue. (Buster Olney Explains)

    Votto is on pace to reach base safely 312 times, which would be a single season franchise record.

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    HeatherC1212 (09-03-2013)

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    RaisorZone Raisor's Avatar
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    Re: Votto is not the issue. (Buster Olney Explains)

    Show me where your criticism has been deleted. That might prove that it's not allowed for Votto.

    Or is it that you just want to say something and not have to defend your opinion?

    That's not really a discussion.
    "But I do know Joey's sister indirectly (or foster sister) and I have heard stories of Joey being into shopping, designer wear, fancy coffees, and pedicures."

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    It's showtime! RedEye's Avatar
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    Re: Votto is not the issue. (Buster Olney Explains)

    Quote Originally Posted by tomnuetten View Post
    he is not the issue?
    Huh?

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    Re: Votto is not the issue. (Buster Olney Explains)

    Quote Originally Posted by xsteve1 View Post
    Any criticism of Votto is not allowed on here. BP and Dusty well thats another story.
    Well thought-out criticism is perfectly allowed. Griping about a player without bothering to defend your opinion is frowned upon. Making blanket statements about RZ without bothering to thoughtfully read other threads is like pouring gasoline on a fire.

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  22. #44
    Member Tom Servo's Avatar
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    Re: Votto is not the issue. (Buster Olney Explains)

    Quote Originally Posted by VR View Post
    Two small things that stick out about Joey.....

    Ground balls are up, fly balls are down.

    Other than last year...his swing % inside the zone is down.

    2007...74
    2008...73
    2009...74
    2010...73
    2011...69
    2012...62
    2013...66.6
    That is interesting, but it makes you wonder how much significance it has when 2010 and 2012 were his best seasons. It's like, he's good when he swings inside the zone...but it's also good when he doesn't as much.
    "Since I've been with the Reds in 1989, we've never had a farm system this loaded," Bowden said. "If we were the New York Yankees and had unlimited dollars, we could have traded for Colon, (Jeff) Weaver, Rolen, (Cliff) Floyd, (Kenny) Rogers and Finley and gotten them all -- and still held onto our top five prospects. That's an amazing statement."

  23. #45
    Waitin til next year bucksfan2's Avatar
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    Re: Votto is not the issue. (Buster Olney Explains)

    Quote Originally Posted by Raisor View Post
    First, season isn't over yet.

    Second, his OPS+ is essentially the same as his 09 and 11 seasons and right at his career average.

    07 127
    08 125
    09 156
    10 171
    11 155
    12 175
    13 152
    Career 154
    2010 was his MVP season and 2012 he was putting up monster numbers until he got hurt. In those seasons he carried the offense and the team easily mad e the playoffs. When Votto has been good the team has struggled to make the playoffs.

    When a team needs a boost you look to your best player to turn it up. Votto is hands down the teams best player. It would be unfair to say the Reds need to go on a roll and they need Cozart and Frazier to step up. If the Reds want to win the Central they need Votto to return to the MVP caliber level. At the current pace this teams looks destined to be the 2nd wild card team. Which sure beats being the 3rd wild card team, but it isn't as good as we fans expected at the start of the season. By no means is this Votto's fault, but if he can kick it up a gear and carry the team they have a chance to win the Central.


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