The Fog From Game Five Last Year

[Edskin]

More to the general point about players only being focused on their job on the field....

Then why would Joey Votto go to the DL with anxiety issues? I think it is pretty clear that he was affected by those issues to the point where it was affecting him on the baseball field. And if one of the best players in the game can be affected so deeply by anxiety it stands to reason that others can as well-- to all different degrees.

If Nelson Cruz is ever in a clinching WS game, I wouldn't be surprised if he tightened up. I wouldn't be surprised if he got in his own head and started stressing about another catchable line drive coming his way.

There is a ton of standing around in baseball. Lots of time to think and psyche yourself out. In that way it is similar to golf--- and everyone knows about the "yips" in golf when a pro suddenly can't sink a three foot putt. Or when a guy like Chuck Knablauch suddenly can't throw the ball to first base anymore without injuring a fan in the front row.

Take those individual issues and anxities and apply them to a team--- I think it is a very reasonable thing to at least ponder.

[joshua]

I used to not believe clubhouse culure could have an effect on how a team plays. But before and after Rolen showed up convinced me. That and the massive difference between this year and last year's Red Sox teams.

[RedEye]

I used to not believe clubhouse culure could have an effect on how a team plays. But before and after Rolen showed up convinced me. That and the massive difference between this year and last year's Red Sox teams.

I think most people agree that clubhouse culture can affect outcomes. The problem arrives when we try to quantify exactly how -- and, moreover, to put a price on -- those effects. From a financial perspective, and a roster-building one, betting on performance rather than intangibles is usually a more wise approach.

[Edskin]

I think most people agree that clubhouse culture can affect outcomes. The problem arrives when we try to quantify exactly how -- and, moreover, to put a price on -- those effects. From a financial perspective, and a roster-building one, betting on performance rather than intangibles is usually a more wise approach.

No doubt, you shouldn't sign a subpar player just because he might bring good vibes to the clubhouse. We can't measure intangibles but we can measure tangibles and I only think it is then logical to try and control the tangibles.

But in the overall analysis, I think intangibles very much matter--- especially if you trying to differentiate between two teams or two players with similar tangibles.

[RedEye]

No doubt, you shouldn't sign a subpar player just because he might bring good vibes to the clubhouse. We can't measure intangibles but we can measure tangibles and I only think it is then logical to try and control the tangibles.

But in the overall analysis, I think intangibles very much matter--- especially if you trying to differentiate between two teams or two players with similar tangibles.

Sure, I agree with that. If two players are otherwise similar, intangibles can be the tiebreaker. I would think they also play an enormous role at the bottom of the roster. When you aren't investing a ton anyway, you might as well get good people.

[redsrule2500]

I believe in the Reds team.

I don't believe in Dusty Baker since game 5 last year, which has really hurt my enjoyment of the Reds. I also admit I would be slightly happy with them faltering and him being fired, rather than him screwing up a game 5 again and returning.

[Hoosier Red]

More to the general point about players only being focused on their job on the field....

Then why would Joey Votto go to the DL with anxiety issues? I think it is pretty clear that he was affected by those issues to the point where it was affecting him on the baseball field. And if one of the best players in the game can be affected so deeply by anxiety it stands to reason that others can as well-- to all different degrees.

If Nelson Cruz is ever in a clinching WS game, I wouldn't be surprised if he tightened up. I wouldn't be surprised if he got in his own head and started stressing about another catchable line drive coming his way.

There is a ton of standing around in baseball. Lots of time to think and psyche yourself out. In that way it is similar to golf--- and everyone knows about the "yips" in golf when a pro suddenly can't sink a three foot putt. Or when a guy like Chuck Knablauch suddenly can't throw the ball to first base anymore without injuring a fan in the front row.

Take those individual issues and anxities and apply them to a team--- I think it is a very reasonable thing to at least ponder.

You're taking three very specific examples, at least two of whom have actual biological issues at their root and trying to extrapolate to thousands of players.

It doesn't necessarily disprove your point, but if you're looking for supporting evidence, I don't think Votto or Knoblauch can really work on any level.

[Edskin]

You're taking three very specific examples, at least two of whom have actual biological issues at their root and trying to extrapolate to thousands of players.

It doesn't necessarily disprove your point, but if you're looking for supporting evidence, I don't think Votto or Knoblauch can really work on any level.

Sure it works. Those are extreme examples of course where mental blocks or issues or whatever you want to call it affected performance to a point of not being able to do your job. But if you use some logic I don't think it is a stretch to say the smaller versions of that probably take place across the league all the time. Someone has an ill family member? Someone has a pending divorce? Someone has gotten off to a terrible start and is fearful of being replaced?

Certain people/athletes can block out those kinds of things or even perform better under that duress (which is just the opposite manifestation of the same theory), and others may be affected negatively.

And in baseball it stands to reason that these issues would be more pronounced given how many games they play and how much idle time exists.

[Red Raindog]

Don't know if Rolen would ever be manager. I don't know if I'd want a guy managing the major league team who has never managed a game before.

Bringing Mack Jenkins up from Louisville to be assistant pitching coach leads me to believe that was a step to prepare for Dusty leaving and Price taking the reigns.

Price as manager, Jenkins as pitching coach and Rolen as hitting coach could be an improvement. Even if Dusty remains as manager and they replace Jacoby with Rolen, I think it'd be a step in the right direction.

I could live with that -- I just think Rolen has the smarts & experience to manage right away - & certainly should have some respect coming his way.

[Falls City Beer]

It's easy to forget that the Cardinals had the Giants pinned down far worse than the Reds last year. Barry Zito going for the Giants in St. Louis facing elimination. The rest is history.

Neither the Reds nor the Cards acquitted themselves terribly well, but what happened to the Cards last postseason was more demoralizing and embarrassing than what happened to the Reds IMO.

[westofyou]

It's easy to forget that the Cardinals had the Giants pinned down far worse than the Reds last year. Barry Zito going for the Giants in St. Louis facing elimination. The rest is history.

Neither the Reds nor the Cards acquitted themselves terribly well, but what happened to the Cards last postseason was more demoralizing and embarrassing than what happened to the Reds IMO.

Yep, but that doesn't fit the narrative because well, they are "winners" and the Reds are a bunch of schmucks who get psyched out worse than the Dillon Panthers did after Smash Williams got hurt

[Old school 1983]

Yep, but that doesn't fit the narrative because well, they are "winners" and the Reds are a bunch of schmucks who get psyched out worse than the Dillon Panthers did after Smash Williams got hurt

What's the narrative of reds v cardinals head to head in recent years especially in St. Louis? I don't think it's so much of a made up narrative and more of a fact they beat the reds and advance further in the postseason on a more consistent basis and it pains me to say it.

[westofyou]

What's the narrative of reds v cardinals head to head in recent years especially in St. Louis? I don't think it's so much of a made up narrative and more of a fact they beat the reds and advance further in the postseason on a more consistent basis and it pains me to say it.

I wasn't talking about the Reds vs The Cardinals and don't care to even play that segue-way game

[Old school 1983]

I wasn't talking about the Reds vs The Cardinals and don't care to even play that segue-way game

You said narrative as it it were some sort of made up hogwash. You sarcastically compared the cardinals and reds, therefore opening the door for a head to head comparison and evaluation of overall playoff performance, when recent evidence shows that head to head and in playoff series the cardinals are more victorious. It's pretty clear this reds team needs to learn to get over the hump and learn to "win the big one" or they'll prove to be nothing more than a team that you say hey they made the playoffs whereas you can say the cardinals won series and in 2011 the World Series. No narrative needed. No sarcasm needed. Just fact.

[Old school 1983]

I'm really not trying to be a jerk here. In the 1970s the big red machine was known as the best team to not win it until 75. I think earlier in the sundeck I compared the reds v th cardinals right now to the bulls v pistons in the NBA in the late 80s. The bulls had to learn how to be tough and win and get over the hump to beat the pistons to become champions. Westofyou I'm sorry if I took you the wrong way but it really seemed as if you were classifying the cardinals success as compared to the reds as some sort of made up narrative when in reality it has merit. The reds need to learn to get over the top and take that next step. The cardinals in recent years have proven that they can do that.