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Thread: 1st and 3rd

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    Member BungleBengals's Avatar
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    1st and 3rd

    Okay, I will not pretend to know much about baseball as I have only recently started to follow the Reds in the 2010 season, but since then I have followed them pretty religiously.

    Anyways, I have a question I am sure some of you can answer. Last night we had Choo on 3rd and Bruce on 1st with 2 outs. But for example's sake, let's say there is 1 out with guys on the corners. We had Heisey coming up to bat and with his night he was having, I wouldn't have doubted that Heisey would hit a DP ball.

    My question is why not have Bruce try to steal 2nd? I know Yadier is one of the best defensive catchers in the league, but why not? If he throws to 2nd, you have the guy at 3rd take off for home. If he doesn't throw to 2nd then you have 2nd and 3rd and avoid the DP ball or even the force out at 2nd.

    Even in the situation last night (2 outs), if he does throw to 2nd then Bruce forces a pickle and Choo goes home. I know it is risky as they are likely expecting him to go home, but with what actually happened and with Heisey's night already going bad, I am asking why not? I would venture a guess that Molina doesn't make that throw. Choo is pretty quick and I think the Cards would risk a plate collision with Yadier's bum knee and all.
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    Rally Onion! Chip R's Avatar
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    Re: 1st and 3rd

    Quote Originally Posted by BungleBengals View Post
    Okay, I will not pretend to know much about baseball as I have only recently started to follow the Reds in the 2010 season, but since then I have followed them pretty religiously.

    Anyways, I have a question I am sure some of you can answer. Last night we had Choo on 3rd and Bruce on 1st with 2 outs. But for example's sake, let's say there is 1 out with guys on the corners. We had Heisey coming up to bat and with his night he was having, I wouldn't have doubted that Heisey would hit a DP ball.

    My question is why not have Bruce try to steal 2nd? I know Yadier is one of the best defensive catchers in the league, but why not? If he throws to 2nd, you have the guy at 3rd take off for home. If he doesn't throw to 2nd then you have 2nd and 3rd and avoid the DP ball or even the force out at 2nd.

    Even in the situation last night (2 outs), if he does throw to 2nd then Bruce forces a pickle and Choo goes home. I know it is risky as they are likely expecting him to go home, but with what actually happened and with Heisey's night already going bad, I am asking why not? I would venture a guess that Molina doesn't make that throw. Choo is pretty quick and I think the Cards would risk a plate collision with Yadier's bum knee and all.
    There's several different things the defense can do in that situation to thwart a double steal. The most common defense is throwing to 2nd and having whomever is covering throw right back to the catcher. The catcher can throw to 3rd to pick the runner off. He can throw back to the pitcher and have the pitcher throw back to the catcher. There are a couple other plays the defense can use as well.

    With the trouble the Reds have had running the bases this year, I'd rather they not try something complicated like that.
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    Stat Wanker Hodiernus RedsManRick's Avatar
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    Re: 1st and 3rd

    I don't know the odds of that approach, but I do know that it's better than an uncalled suicide squeeze for a hit attempt.
    Games are won on run differential -- scoring more than your opponent. Runs are runs, scored or prevented they all count the same. Worry about scoring more and allowing fewer, not which positions contribute to which side of the equation or how "consistent" you are at your current level of performance.

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    Stat Wanker Hodiernus RedsManRick's Avatar
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    Re: 1st and 3rd

    Quote Originally Posted by Chip R View Post
    There's several different things the defense can do in that situation to thwart a double steal. The most common defense is throwing to 2nd and having whomever is covering throw right back to the catcher. The catcher can throw to 3rd to pick the runner off. He can throw back to the pitcher and have the pitcher throw back to the catcher. There are a couple other plays the defense can use as well.

    With the trouble the Reds have had running the bases this year, I'd rather they not try something complicated like that.
    The Yankees pulled this off successfully the other day even with the 2B charging and throwing home.

    If the guy on 3rd is reasonably fast and gets a good jump, it takes a perfect throw by the 2B to catch the runner. Certainly a big risk though.
    Games are won on run differential -- scoring more than your opponent. Runs are runs, scored or prevented they all count the same. Worry about scoring more and allowing fewer, not which positions contribute to which side of the equation or how "consistent" you are at your current level of performance.

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    Re: 1st and 3rd

    Quote Originally Posted by RedsManRick View Post
    suicide squeeze for a hit.
    Oxymoron...nice.
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    Re: 1st and 3rd

    Quote Originally Posted by RedsManRick View Post
    I don't know the odds of that approach, but I do know that it's better than an uncalled suicide squeeze for a hit attempt.
    I know Baker said Heisey did that on his own...but that just seems strange, especially since Choo played it like it was a called play. If Heisey did that on his own without any communication, no way Choo breaks like he did because he wouldn't been caught off guard too.

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    Re: 1st and 3rd

    Quote Originally Posted by RedsBrick View Post
    I know Baker said Heisey did that on his own...but that just seems strange, especially since Choo played it like it was a called play. If Heisey did that on his own without any communication, no way Choo breaks like he did because he wouldn't been caught off guard too.
    Heisey's reaction of shock at Choo getting in the rundown after missing at the attempt showed there was no play called. Choo reacted to seeing Heisey square around. Had it been a called play, Choo would have taken off as soon as the pitcher went home. Instead he left as Heisey squared.

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    Member BungleBengals's Avatar
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    Re: 1st and 3rd

    I know therer are a lot of options the defense can, but isn't there a lot of options for the offense too?

    Bruce could go for 2nd and Choo can fake going to home thus allow Bruce to take 2nd when the SS throws back home.

    Bruce can force a pickle and Choo goes home.

    There a are plently of combinations, and I think when you have Heisey batting, the option to try to at least steal 2nd has to come to mind. If Heisey gets one of his rare clutch hits, then you can score 2 instead of 1 as well. Or if it is a bouncer to SS or 3B, then there is a chance for an infield single too instead of a force out at 2nd.
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    Re: 1st and 3rd

    Quote Originally Posted by RiverRat13 View Post
    Heisey's reaction of shock at Choo getting in the rundown after missing at the attempt showed there was no play called. Choo reacted to seeing Heisey square around. Had it been a called play, Choo would have taken off as soon as the pitcher went home. Instead he left as Heisey squared.
    You're exactly right if the play was a suicide squeeze. But if the play was a safety squeeze (which makes absolutely no sense either!), Choo wouldn't bolt for the plate as the pitcher delivers but would wait that extra beat to make sure the bunt was down.

    Either way, it was a cluster and should have never happened.

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    Et tu, Brutus? Brutus's Avatar
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    Re: 1st and 3rd

    Quote Originally Posted by RedsManRick View Post
    I don't know the odds of that approach, but I do know that it's better than an uncalled suicide squeeze for a hit attempt.
    It wasn't a squeeze attempt.

    It was a regular bunt-for-a-hit attempt where the runner simply assumed contact and got himself caught. Had Choo thought it was a squeeze attempt, called for or otherwise, he'd have broke as soon as the pitcher went into his delivery -- which he did not.

    The bunt aspect is irrelevant. This was nothing more than a baserunning snafu.
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    Re: 1st and 3rd

    Quote Originally Posted by Brutus View Post
    It wasn't a squeeze attempt.

    It was a regular bunt-for-a-hit attempt where the runner simply assumed contact and got himself caught. Had Choo thought it was a squeeze attempt, called for or otherwise, he'd have broke as soon as the pitcher went into his delivery -- which he did not.

    The bunt aspect is irrelevant. This was nothing more than a baserunning snafu.
    This.

    Of course it wasn't a squeeze, there were 2 outs. The announcers embarrrassed themselves even mentioning it.

    If Heisey had put dowen any decent kind of bunt and beaten it out, and the Reds had won, do you think anyone would have said "Boy that may have worked but is was sure dumb"? The choice by Heisey to bunt for a base hot was fine, but Choo screwed up in venturing too far off. He wasn't ready for the bunt and you could see he was confused. That's his mistake as any runner on third (or any other base for that matter) has to be prepared if the batter tries to bunt for a base hit. Heisey has shown before he'll lay down a bunt for a base hit.

    You never try a squeeze with 2 outs and the defence simply needs to throw to first to retire the side. The idea of a suicidide squeeze is that the runner usually scores as long as the bunt is fair.

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    Re: 1st and 3rd

    Whitey Herzog loved the double steal, with runners on first and third. It worked much more often than it failed. It's also an exciting play to watch. But Herzog had some burners on his team, which you need.
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    Member Norm Chortleton's Avatar
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    Re: 1st and 3rd

    1. Molina throws Bruce out by 10 feet if he attempts to steal. Inning over.
    2. Bruce isn't near nimble enough to stay in a rundown long enough to allow Choo to score.

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    Stat Wanker Hodiernus RedsManRick's Avatar
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    Re: 1st and 3rd

    Quote Originally Posted by RiverRat13 View Post
    Heisey's reaction of shock at Choo getting in the rundown after missing at the attempt showed there was no play called. Choo reacted to seeing Heisey square around. Had it been a called play, Choo would have taken off as soon as the pitcher went home. Instead he left as Heisey squared.
    Yep. I noticed the same thing. He turned away after the bunt in frustration that he missed, but seemed almost confused that Choo got "caught stealing".

    I have to think that Heisey made a ill-advised call on his own, figuring that a bunt down the 3rd base line was his best chance for a hit. He simply didn't consider/think that Choo would read it and take off for home, leaving him hanging out to dry in the event Heisey missed.
    Games are won on run differential -- scoring more than your opponent. Runs are runs, scored or prevented they all count the same. Worry about scoring more and allowing fewer, not which positions contribute to which side of the equation or how "consistent" you are at your current level of performance.

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    Re: 1st and 3rd

    Quote Originally Posted by RedsManRick View Post
    Yep. I noticed the same thing. He turned away after the bunt in frustration that he missed, but seemed almost confused that Choo got "caught stealing".

    I have to think that Heisey made a ill-advised call on his own, figuring that a bunt down the 3rd base line was his best chance for a hit. He simply didn't consider/think that Choo would read it and take off for home, leaving him hanging out to dry in the event Heisey missed.
    Agree. I'm hoping Baker clarifies things cause most articles I've read have Baker calling a suicide squeeze and makes him look really bad. I think it was a bad call on Heisey and very baffling. Then again if it worked, people would say Heisey had great baseball IQ and understanding the situation.

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