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Thread: Cards-vs-Reds-9/5/2013

  1. #406
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    Re: Cards-vs-Reds-9/5/2013

    Quote Originally Posted by Kc61 View Post
    Mesoraco is OPSing .669. It's great to try and clone good young players. But they have to first become good, which takes time and sometimes doesn't happen at all.
    League average at catcher is .699. I have little doubt Mes will be league average or better next year with appropriate and consistent playing time.

    Frazier and Mes aren't the problem on a team saddled with some poor contracts, high priced pitching sitting on the DL and some major financial decisions over the next 18 months.

    On a side note, good to see the Ravens getting humiliated on Opening Night.

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    Re: Cards-vs-Reds-9/5/2013

    Quote Originally Posted by oregonred View Post
    League average at catcher is .699. I have little doubt Mes will be league average or better next year with appropriate and consistent playing time.

    Frazier and Mes aren't the problem on a team saddled with some poor contracts, high priced pitching sitting on the DL and some major financial decisions over the next 18 months.

    On a side note, good to see the Ravens getting humiliated on Opening Night.
    Mes is thirty points of OPS below the average NL catcher including starters, part timers, bench players, and scrubs. This is not a good number. And should he improve to league average for starters, well, a league average team is just that.

    If your point is that it's financially necessary for a mid-market team to emphasize pitching, I would agree. But the team has to have an effective offense.

    Just because a player is cheap doesn't mean he is an effective offensive player. Mes certainly has not been so far.

  4. #408
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    Re: Cards-vs-Reds-9/5/2013

    Quote Originally Posted by Kc61 View Post
    Mes is thirty points of OPS below the average NL catcher including starters, part timers, bench players, and scrubs. This is not a good number. And should he improve to league average for starters, well, a league average team is just that.

    If your point is that it's financially necessary for a mid-market team to emphasize pitching, I would agree. But the team has to have an effective offense.

    Just because a player is cheap doesn't mean he is an effective offensive player. Mes certainly has not been so far.
    Votto, Bruce, Choo, DatDude - that's $40M+ of payroll and all star caliber talent paid to carry the offensive weight to supplement a stud pitching staff and a 20+M a year bullpen. Cheap and league average from Frazier and Mes is more than passable at two premium positions. Whether Mes is league average or better is yet to be determined - I'm still convinced there is untapped upside.

  5. #409
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    Re: Cards-vs-Reds-9/5/2013

    Home!

    One of the better all around games I have attended. Great time at GABP

    Hopefully tomorrow's will top it....and I think it will.

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  7. #410
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    Re: Cards-vs-Reds-9/5/2013

    Quote Originally Posted by oregonred View Post
    Votto, Bruce, Choo, DatDude - that's $40M+ of payroll and all star caliber talent paid to carry the offensive weight to supplement a stud pitching staff and a 20+M a year bullpen. Cheap and league average from Frazier and Mes is more than passable at two premium positions. Whether Mes is league average or better is yet to be determined - I'm still convinced there is untapped upside.
    Inexpensive talent is important but the goal is to be selective and find players who are cheap and effective. Not simply to promote draft choices and declare them "league average" and leave it at that.

    The allegiance fans have to home grown talent is admirable, but these players have to be assessed realistically.

    In some cases, say a Mesoraco, I'd be prepared to wait and hope that with time he's a plus player. But to read some posts here, you'd think the guy was at .969 instead of .669. Not realistic.

    You win with prospects performing like Cingrani on the Reds. He's an example of how to save money and win. Or like Todd Frazier last year.
    Last edited by Kc61; 09-06-2013 at 01:13 AM.

  8. #411
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    Re: Cards-vs-Reds-9/5/2013

    Quote Originally Posted by Kc61 View Post
    Sure it does. It makes sense to look at offense. The team needs more of it. Frazier hasn't provided it.

    WAR includes other things, but the Reds need more offense. It will have to come from someplace. I say third base is on the list.
    The Reds are third in the NL in scoring out of 15 teams. The narrative that the Reds' offense is in bad shape has been out of touch with reality for quite some time.
    "No matter how good you are, you're going to lose one-third of your games. No matter how bad you are you're going to win one-third of your games. It's the other third that makes the difference." ~Tommy Lasorda

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    Re: Cards-vs-Reds-9/5/2013

    Quote Originally Posted by Roy Tucker View Post
    I almost got a divorce last night. My wife said she likes the Cardinals' jerseys with the 2 birds perched on a bat.

    After a couple innings of silence, she bought me a beer and all was well again.
    "Beeeeeeeeer... Is there anything it can't do?" - Homer J Simpson
    Rounding third and heading for home...

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    Re: Cards-vs-Reds-9/5/2013

    That was a very good bounce back win after a very tough loss. This team showed me they have a lot of character by not hanging their heads and just settling for a split.
    Reds Fan Since 1971

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    Re: Cards-vs-Reds-9/5/2013

    Quote Originally Posted by Roy Tucker View Post
    So, all the people complaining about attendance, did you go to a game in this series?
    If you have read this thread at all you'd know my answer.

  14. #415
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    Re: Cards-vs-Reds-9/5/2013

    Quote Originally Posted by oregonred View Post
    Need season tickets to avoid weekday dry spells during school/football season.

    Baltimore 17K today, Braves low 20s all week, Arizona 16-18K all week... Even the Yankees and Angels 5-10K below season average all week long. Cubs 20,606 yesterday - I've never seen a Wrigley number that low.

    Baseball after Labor Day and before the playoffs just doesn't move the needle much anymore (expanded playoffs diluting playoff race intensity, NFL/college hype, back to school, who knows...

    Both teams headed to the playoffs, it was a battle of 2nd and 3rd place teams playing for playoff seeding not for their playoff lives. 100K over 4 days. Was hoping for better, but the Reds haven't exactly been playing pack the walk-up lines and keep the school kids up until 11pm type baseball the last few months.
    Baseball really needs to shorten the season by about 12-18 games

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    Re: Cards-vs-Reds-9/5/2013

    Quote Originally Posted by Brutus View Post
    The Reds are third in the NL in scoring out of 15 teams. The narrative that the Reds' offense is in bad shape has been out of touch with reality for quite some time.
    Offense in bad shape? No. Is it top drawer? Also no. Folks should look at such things as park adjusted stats, like OPS+. Offense needs work, particularly with Choo likely leaving.
    Last edited by Kc61; 09-06-2013 at 09:07 AM.

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  17. #417
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    Re: Cards-vs-Reds-9/5/2013

    Quote Originally Posted by Kc61 View Post
    Inexpensive talent is important but the goal is to be selective and find players who are cheap and effective. Not simply to promote draft choices and declare them "league average" and leave it at that.

    The allegiance fans have to home grown talent is admirable, but these players have to be assessed realistically.

    In some cases, say a Mesoraco, I'd be prepared to wait and hope that with time he's a plus player. But to read some posts here, you'd think the guy was at .969 instead of .669. Not realistic.

    You win with prospects performing like Cingrani on the Reds. He's an example of how to save money and win. Or like Todd Frazier last year.
    I think we agree but you went say off tangent to obviousville. Sure give me a few Cingrani's every year and life would be a breeze. However, low cost guys like Frazier and Mes (couldn't care less if homegrown or a 1st round pick) are a necessity on a small/mid market payroll trying to keep a talented are eligible core together.

    We agree that Cingani's emergence is huge and easily the best Reds story of the year. He gives the Reds pay flex with the starting core for years down the road.

  18. #418
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    Re: Cards-vs-Reds-9/5/2013

    Quote Originally Posted by oregonred View Post
    I think we agree but you went say off tangent to obviousville. Sure give me a few Cingrani's every year and life would be a breeze. However, low cost guys like Frazier and Mes (couldn't care less if homegrown or a 1st round pick) are a necessity on a small/mid market payroll trying to keep a talented are eligible core together.

    We agree that Cingani's emergence is huge and easily the best Reds story of the year. He gives the Reds pay flex with the starting core for years down the road.
    All I am saying is it is not enough for a player to be drafted, cheap, have some minor league success, and play a position. Finding the right cheaper players is an art and an important one.

  19. #419
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    Re: Cards-vs-Reds-9/5/2013

    If I learned nothing else from this series, I understand now that there is no mojo, that the offensive output against our excellent pitching staff was random, and that these are two pretty even teams. With us suddenly pretty healthy offensively and the Cards having some injury problems of their own, we may just get that home game for the WC.
    Can't win with 'em

    Can't win without 'em

  20. #420
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    Re: Cards-vs-Reds-9/5/2013

    Quote Originally Posted by Kc61 View Post
    Offense in bad shape? No. Is it top drawer? Also no. Folks should look at such things as park adjusted stats, like OPS+. Offense needs work, particularly with Choo likely leaving.
    Let's assume Choo does leave, why would the solution be to have to replace a second quality player instead of focusing on replacing Choo?

    Frazier isn't a problem. He's certainly not lived up to expectations most of us here had for him thus far, but he's not a problem. He's still a very productive third baseman that a majority of the teams in the majors would love to have starting for them.
    "No matter how good you are, you're going to lose one-third of your games. No matter how bad you are you're going to win one-third of your games. It's the other third that makes the difference." ~Tommy Lasorda


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