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Thread: So Hamilton is electric

  1. #136
    Sprinkles are for winners dougdirt's Avatar
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    Re: So Hamilton is electric

    Quote Originally Posted by SpiritofStLouis View Post
    Thanks, I hadn't heard that, but you would be better qualified to know. Is he capable enough in the OF to use as a defensive replacement for Choo, or could he fill in in left or right if circumstances dictate (injury, etc.) ?
    Hamilton would probably be one of the better defensive center fielders in the game today. I doubt he would be used in the corners though, he hasn't ever played there.

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  3. #137
    Churlish Johnny Footstool's Avatar
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    Re: So Hamilton is electric

    Quote Originally Posted by _Sir_Charles_ View Post
    This point can't be repeated enough. It helps the hitters because the pitcher will make more mistakes, will rush his delivery messing with his accuracy, he'll shake off breaking balls and go with more FB's, etc. It's in the catcher's head too. He's jumpy back behind the dish, not giving a good target to the pitcher and is set up in poor form to receive the pitch. Defenders in the IF will be wanting to make their breaks towards the bag quicker and allowing for slightly larger IF holes for the hitters. The effects of a true base-stealing threat are really underestimated IMO.
    It can also affect the hitter negatively. Again, very difficult to measure.
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  4. #138
    Savante SpiritofStLouis's Avatar
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    Re: So Hamilton is electric

    Quote Originally Posted by dougdirt View Post
    Hamilton would probably be one of the better defensive center fielders in the game today. I doubt he would be used in the corners though, he hasn't ever played there.
    I'm thinking in the course of a playoff series.

    I still don't see it. I appreciate that he's a difference maker on the bases, but to use a playoff roster spot for him instead of an extra bat or arm seems like a big gamble.

    During the course of a 5 or 7 game playoff, a situation to use him might not even come up. Then consider that he might have to play the field and you limit him to hitting and/or running for a pitcher or OFer.

    You just don't have the luxury that you do in September in the regular season when the roster is expanded.
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  5. #139
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    Re: So Hamilton is electric

    Quote Originally Posted by SpiritofStLouis View Post
    I'm thinking in the course of a playoff series.

    I still don't see it. I appreciate that he's a difference maker on the bases, but to use a playoff roster spot for him instead of an extra bat or arm seems like a big gamble.

    During the course of a 5 or 7 game playoff, a situation to use him might not even come up. Then consider that he might have to play the field and you limit him to hitting and/or running for a pitcher or OFer.

    You just don't have the luxury that you do in September in the regular season when the roster is expanded.
    Yes you do have that luxury, because you only need 4 starters or maybe even 3 in the playoffs. You can carry 11 pitchers and not stress about carrying Billy.
    Attended 1976 World Series in my Mother's Womb. Attended 1990 World Series Game 2 as a 13 year old. Want to take my son to a a World Series Game in Cincinnati in my lifetime.

  6. #140
    Moderator RedlegJake's Avatar
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    Re: So Hamilton is electric

    Quote Originally Posted by SpiritofStLouis View Post
    I'm thinking in the course of a playoff series.

    I still don't see it. I appreciate that he's a difference maker on the bases, but to use a playoff roster spot for him instead of an extra bat or arm seems like a big gamble.

    During the course of a 5 or 7 game playoff, a situation to use him might not even come up. Then consider that he might have to play the field and you limit him to hitting and/or running for a pitcher or OFer.

    You just don't have the luxury that you do in September in the regular season when the roster is expanded.
    Normally I'd agree but not here. He is simply a rarity. He can play CF very well and could slide into center as defensive replacement - Choo could always slide over in a pinch. We are talking late in the game. He is an excellent bunter. He can bunt for hits. Anything on the ground is a threat for a single. It's not as if he is absolutely hapless at the plate - you make it sound like he is the worst player that ever came up. His speed as pinch runner changes the entire complexion of a situation. It rattles the pitcher, it brings the catcher out of his normal stance, it opens a hole in the infield as the 1B holds him close, it eliminates the bunt and giving up an out to advance the runner, your Cardinal team saw what it can do to a team in a close game. Finally, the season isn't over yet. Plenty of time for him to get a few at bats against the Cubs, Stros and Brewers to see how he fares.

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  8. #141
    Flash the leather! _Sir_Charles_'s Avatar
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    Re: So Hamilton is electric

    Quote Originally Posted by SpiritofStLouis View Post
    Thanks, I hadn't heard that, but you would be better qualified to know. Is he capable enough in the OF to use as a defensive replacement for Choo, or could he fill in in left or right if circumstances dictate (injury, etc.) ?
    Absolutely for center. I don't think he's played left or right yet.

    ~edit~ Nevermind, I see others have covered this.
    Last edited by _Sir_Charles_; 09-09-2013 at 07:12 PM.

  9. #142
    Savante SpiritofStLouis's Avatar
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    Re: So Hamilton is electric

    Quote Originally Posted by RedlegJake View Post
    Normally I'd agree but not here. He is simply a rarity. He can play CF very well and could slide into center as defensive replacement - Choo could always slide over in a pinch. We are talking late in the game. He is an excellent bunter. He can bunt for hits. Anything on the ground is a threat for a single. It's not as if he is absolutely hapless at the plate - you make it sound like he is the worst player that ever came up. His speed as pinch runner changes the entire complexion of a situation. It rattles the pitcher, it brings the catcher out of his normal stance, it opens a hole in the infield as the 1B holds him close, it eliminates the bunt and giving up an out to advance the runner, your Cardinal team saw what it can do to a team in a close game. Finally, the season isn't over yet. Plenty of time for him to get a few at bats against the Cubs, Stros and Brewers to see how he fares.
    By no means did I mean to insinuate that he is a hapless hitter, but while reading this thread, very few, if any, have referred to his hitting.

    What I am saying is that in a short series, you fill your roster with as many bats and arms as possible. Even defensive replacements are players that have been on the roster during the season.

    I also disagree about the number of pitchers. Just because a team is using fewer starters doesn't mean that they can use fewer on the roster. You still need a long man, so as not to burn up your bullpen. In most cases, that's your 5th starter.

    Many teams will add an extra lefty, or use that spot for an extra bat or even 3rd catcher.

    My point is that to have a player on a team whose primary role is to reek havoc on the bases is not practical. Teams will be reluctant to pinch run for anyone but a pitcher, so if he pinch hits, someone will have to come out. The last thing you want to do is run out of position players in a playoff game.

    Unless it's a one run game or tied, it won't make sense to use him. Second, is he someone Dusty would send up with runners on base, down by a couple ? Third, are you going to switch out for Choo in a tie game in the late innings ?

    I also think you are overstating the whole " disruption " factor. We're talking about the postseason, and the better teams and better pitchers will be playing. Pitchers used to say they ignored Vince Coleman and just let him run, concentrating on the hitter.

    Sure, if the situation is ideal, late innings and a tie game, he'd be the ideal weapon. But what are the odds of that happening in a short series ? What if the games aren't close, or the tying run is your back up catcher ?

    I'm not saying he won't make the roster (if possible), and maybe the Reds can afford to have him on the squad. I just can't remember any instances where a team had a designated baserunner on a playoff roster at the exspense of an extra bat or arm.
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  10. #143
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    Re: So Hamilton is electric

    Already considered one of the greatest base stealers of all-time according to this list. Nice!!

    #4 all time!!!

  11. #144
    Member 757690's Avatar
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    Re: So Hamilton is electric

    In terms of playoff roster construction:

    If you look at past postseason results, you'll see that many times, players on the postseason roster are never used in the playoffs. Teams tend to play their best players for every inning, except when there is an injury.

    There really is no difference between carrying a guy like X. Paul on the roster, who will likely only get a handful of pinch hitting chances, and a guy like Hamilton who will only get a handful of pinch running chances.

    Most playoff teams use just their starting 8, their 5 starting pitchers, and their 3 best relievers in the playoffs. The other 9 guys are there used only in extreme situations. They really aren't needed much at all. So carrying one guy who mostly pinch runs, isn't a big deal at all.
    "Man, the pitch looks fast, even in slow motion." Thom Brennaman on Chapman's fastball.

  12. #145
    No half measures, Walter RedEye's Avatar
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    Re: So Hamilton is electric

    Quote Originally Posted by RadfordVA View Post
    I know everyone sees leadoff hitter but I think he would be ideally suited for the 2 hole if somehow Choo stuck around. With Dusty liking his 2 hole hitter capable of bunting. Choo can be bunted over to second when Votto comes up and a lot of those sacrifices would turn into hits or errors with Hamilton's speed.
    Yeah, you gotta think that Billy early in his career would be one of those exceptions where it makes sense to bunt. My only worry is that it would stunt his growth as a hitter otherwise, which would be unfortunate.
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  13. #146
    Savante SpiritofStLouis's Avatar
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    Re: So Hamilton is electric

    Quote Originally Posted by 757690 View Post
    In terms of playoff roster construction:

    If you look at past postseason results, you'll see that many times, players on the postseason roster are never used in the playoffs. Teams tend to play their best players for every inning, except when there is an injury.

    There really is no difference between carrying a guy like X. Paul on the roster, who will likely only get a handful of pinch hitting chances, and a guy like Hamilton who will only get a handful of pinch running chances.

    Most playoff teams use just their starting 8, their 5 starting pitchers, and their 3 best relievers in the playoffs. The other 9 guys are there used only in extreme situations. They really aren't needed much at all. So carrying one guy who mostly pinch runs, isn't a big deal at all.
    I agree with the premise that you usually ride your starters as long as possible, and that teams will use 12 or 13 pitchers, the rest position players. You need a long man (usually the 5th starter), at least 1 extra catcher, a utility IFer and a loogy.

    Assuming that the Reds wouldn't use Hamilton as the only extra OFer (I was told he's never played left or right), who that was on the team on August 31 doesn't make the cut ?
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  14. #147
    Member blumj's Avatar
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    Re: So Hamilton is electric

    The last guy I'd ever want on my team's postseason roster is their 7th best reliever. You're scaring me.
    "Reality tells us there are no guarantees. Except that some day Jon Lester will be on that list of 100-game winners." - Peter Gammons

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  16. #148
    Member Wonderful Monds's Avatar
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    Re: So Hamilton is electric

    Quote Originally Posted by DocRed View Post
    Already considered one of the greatest base stealers of all-time according to this list. Nice!!

    #4 all time!!!
    Can't wait for Billy Hamiton to break Billy Hamilton's record.
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  17. #149
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    Re: So Hamilton is electric

    Anyone have any info or know where to get the following:

    Win expectancy of runner on 2nd w 1/out vs runner on 2nd w/out in a tie game, down 1 run, up 1 run?

    Trying to wrap around some sort of value Hamilton adds as a pinch runner.
    "Today was the byproduct of us thinking we can come back from anything." - Joey Votto after blowing a 10-1 lead and holding on for the 12-11 win on 8/25/2010.

  18. #150
    The Big Dog mth123's Avatar
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    Re: So Hamilton is electric

    Quote Originally Posted by SpiritofStLouis View Post
    I agree with the premise that you usually ride your starters as long as possible, and that teams will use 12 or 13 pitchers, the rest position players. You need a long man (usually the 5th starter), at least 1 extra catcher, a utility IFer and a loogy.

    Assuming that the Reds wouldn't use Hamilton as the only extra OFer (I was told he's never played left or right), who that was on the team on August 31 doesn't make the cut ?
    For my money, you use your best weapons. I'd have Hamilton on the roster and I'd also go with 12 pitchers assuming Marshall and Cueto are healthy. The guys I don't want on the roster are the interchangeable parts who probably wouldn't get in a game anyway. Jack Hannahan would be my choice as the guy to sit the series out. Heisey and Paul would be pinch hitters. Izturis is the extra infielder who could play any spot in the event a guy is needed to play defense. Mesoraco/Hanigan would occupy a spot as the extra catcher and Hamilton would be on the bench as an offensive weapon for late in the game. Hannahan can't really hit anyway and offers little more as a PH than Hamilton would if he's pressed into it. Over a long season, a guy like Hannahan and his ability to play 3B as a spot player who hits lefty is useful to rest the starter against a tough RH pitcher, but he won't see action in the play-offs unless it's a disaster. Hamilton is much more likely to have an impact on the outcome of a game than Hannahan would. A Heisey, Paul, Izturis, Hanigan and Hamilton bench with 8 starters and 12 pitchers would be my roster.

    As for my staff Latos, Arroyo, Bailey, Leake, Cingrani, Cueto, Chapman, Marshall, Hoover, Lecure, Parra and Duke would be the guys. If one of Marshall or Cueto couldn't go I'd add Simon. If neither could go, I'd add Simon and drop to 11 and use Hannahan on the bench. After that, if there is another injury, I'd probably go to Curtis Partch as another arm.

    It would take a multi-player injury/plane crash before I'd add Ondrusek, Soto, H-Rod or any of the others.
    Last edited by mth123; 09-10-2013 at 05:34 AM.
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