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Thread: Who are your favorites for AL/NL MVP?

  1. #76
    Danger is my business! oneupper's Avatar
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    Re: Who are your favorites for AL/NL MVP?

    Quote Originally Posted by kaldaniels View Post
    However doesn't WPA accrue during losses?

    This theory may be totally off the mark.

    But how many times in a game thread, have we heard "and the Reds wasted another great pitching performance by ______".

    If Latos pitches 9 shutout innings but Ondrusek blows the game in the 10th...what value did Latos performance truly have other than eating 9 innings. It was nice, but it was for naught ----> so was it valuable?

    Now again, this is only discussing value to the team. As far as say the Cy Young is concerned, those stats should help his case.
    WPA always accrues. It just accrues very little in low pressure situations.

    Hit a HR in the ninth to win. Lots of WPA.
    Hit a HR in the ninth in a 10-1 blowout (for either side), very little WPA.

    FWIW, most good hitters accrue a lot of WPA during a season, but they can get some extra with those "clutch" hits.

    Joey Votto led the majors in WPA last year despite missing so much time.
    This year he's down on the list (#20 in MLB, 10 in the NL). Choo is 3rd in the NL.

    There's always the argument that bad teams don't give their players chances to win, etc, etc. And lots of discussion about methodology, etc.

    But I like WPA and would be inclined to take it into consideration for MVP voting (If in fact, I had a vote).

    Right now I'd still go with Cabrera and McCutchen, who are not the WPA leaders, but are up there and have had great seasons on playoff teams.
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  3. #77
    It's showtime! RedEye's Avatar
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    Re: Who are your favorites for AL/NL MVP?

    To me, the MVP is about individual performance, which should be measured according to how much an individual player helps to produce and prevent runs. They have trophies and t-shirts and champagne and stuff to reward the team victories.
    Last edited by RedEye; 09-11-2013 at 07:45 PM.

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  5. #78
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    Re: Who are your favorites for AL/NL MVP?

    Quote Originally Posted by RedEye View Post
    To me, the MVP is about individual performance, which should be measured according to how much an individual player helps to produce and prevent runs. They have trophies and t-shirts and champagne an stuff to reward the team victories.
    Unfortunately, that's not how it is measured in the current voting process. It's all about offensive performance, and defense and speed are an afterthought.

    I don't expect that will change until the fielding/baserunning stats improve to the point that they enjoy broad common support. I don't even know that the Gold Gloves still aren't handed out by fielding percentage.
    Last edited by AmarilloRed; 09-11-2013 at 05:29 PM.

  6. #79
    The Boss dougdirt's Avatar
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    Re: Who are your favorites for AL/NL MVP?

    Quote Originally Posted by AmarilloRed View Post
    Unfortunately, that's not how it is measured in the current voting process. It's all about offensive performance, and defense and speed are an afterthought.

    I don't expect that will change until the fielding/baserunning stats improve to the point that they enjoy broad common support. I don't even know that the Gold Gloves still aren't handed out by fielding percentage.
    Tell that to Barry Larkin or Jimmy Rollins, who in no way, shape or form came close to have elite level offensive seasons when they brought home their MVP awards.

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    Re: Who are your favorites for AL/NL MVP?

    Quote Originally Posted by AmarilloRed View Post
    Unfortunately, that's not how it is measured in the current voting process. It's all about offensive performance, and defense and speed are an afterthought.

    I don't expect that will change until the fielding/baserunning stats improve to the point that they enjoy broad common support. I don't even know that the Gold Gloves still aren't handed out by fielding percentage.
    A few responses:

    1) What is wrong with the current base running stats? I wasn't aware that they were nearly as controversial as the fielding ones.

    2) I think there are actually quite a few voters who are changing their minds on how to analyze player value. Heck, there was actually a mainstream (i.e. stories on ESPN and elsewhere) debate between Trout and Cabrera using WAR as the main reference point. If that's happening, I have to think some voters are along the same lines.

    3) Do you prefer no picture at all to a flawed one? Do you think we should throw out our pictures from the Mars rovers just because we don't have a detailed image of the entire planet? WAR works to give us a more complete picture. Though it may be grainy and missing some details right now, it is a whole lot better than looking at something with our naked eyes alone.
    Last edited by RedEye; 09-11-2013 at 07:53 PM.

  8. #81
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    Re: Who are your favorites for AL/NL MVP?

    Quote Originally Posted by dougdirt View Post
    Tell that to Barry Larkin or Jimmy Rollins, who in no way, shape or form came close to have elite level offensive seasons when they brought home their MVP awards.
    And how often have seen then have a impact? Larkin and Rollins are the exceptions to the rule. It happens, even pitchers will occasionally win, but more often than not it is a dominant offensive performance.

    As for Rollins, he did have 20 triples that year.

  9. #82
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    Re: Who are your favorites for AL/NL MVP?

    Quote Originally Posted by RedEye View Post
    A few responses:


    3) Do you prefer no picture at all to a flawed one? Do you think we should throw out our pictures from the Mars rovers just because we don't have a detailed image of the entire planet? WAR works to give us a more complete picture. Though it may be grainy and missing some details right now, it is a whole lot better than looking at something with our naked eyes alone.
    That's the point, I still think the writers are still going by the counting stats. BA/HR/RBI for hitters, wins/ERA/Ks for Cy Young, fielding percentage for defense, and stolen bases for baserunning.

    They might look at OBP and OPS, some of the more cosmopolitan ones.Kurkjian does, maybe a sizable minority will take into account sabre analysis.

    As to whether the writers consider WAR or will in the future-50/50 at best. I'm sure some of them will take a closer look at it, but it'll probably be a idle interest at best. It'll take a new generation of writers for substantial change to occur.

    We'll see if things are changing this year. If Trout or Mccutcheon win this year, it means things are changing. If it's Goldschmidt and Cabrera, they're just repeating old patterns.We'll find out soon enough.
    Last edited by AmarilloRed; 09-11-2013 at 09:07 PM.

  10. #83
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    Re: Who are your favorites for AL/NL MVP?

    Quote Originally Posted by AmarilloRed View Post
    As to whether the writers consider WAR or will in the future-50/50 at best. I'm sure some of them will take a closer look at it, but it'll probably be a idle interest at best. It'll take a new generation of writers for substantial change to occur.

    We'll see if things are changing this year. If Trout or Mccutcheon win this year, it means things are changing. If it's Goldschmidt and Cabrera, they're just repeating old patterns.We'll find out soon enough.
    Agreed. Seems that change sometimes comes around quicker than we expect it to though. I had never heard of WAR five years ago, and now it appears on the ESPN stat page alongside HR and RBI.

  11. #84
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    Re: Who are your favorites for AL/NL MVP?

    Quote Originally Posted by dougdirt View Post
    Tell that to Barry Larkin or Jimmy Rollins, who in no way, shape or form came close to have elite level offensive seasons when they brought home their MVP awards.
    OPS not an elite .875 and hit just under .300 but SS with 38 doubles, 20 triples, 30 HR, 41 SB (only 6 CS)....

    A SS with 380 Total Bases? 88 XBH?

  12. #85
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    Re: Who are your favorites for AL/NL MVP?

    Quote Originally Posted by Ironman92 View Post
    OPS not an elite .875 and hit just under .300 but SS with 38 doubles, 20 triples, 30 HR, 41 SB (only 6 CS)....

    A SS with 380 Total Bases? 88 XBH?
    Aren't OPS and the like supposed to account for the counting stats?

  13. #86
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    Re: Who are your favorites for AL/NL MVP?

    Quote Originally Posted by RedEye View Post
    Aren't OPS and the like supposed to account for the counting stats?
    OB % not good....how can you discredit a SS doing what he did? Because he broke the all-time AB record? Played every game?

    I'm comfortable in saying his OPS was not elite but his XBH definitely were....a SS with elite XBH totals and 41 SB?

    We've seen .875 20x a year.....but 88 XBH is elite.

  14. #87
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    Re: Who are your favorites for AL/NL MVP?

    Quote Originally Posted by Ironman92 View Post
    OB % not good....how can you discredit a SS doing what he did? Because he broke the all-time AB record? Played every game?

    I'm comfortable in saying his OPS was not elite but his XBH definitely were....a SS with elite XBH totals and 41 SB?

    We've seen .875 20x a year.....but 88 XBH is elite.
    I am not disagreeing that Rollins had a great season, especially with his D and his position factored in to the equation. He made a heck of a lot of outs that year though, too. That was probably the least effective part of his game, and it's what painted his overall offensive picture as merely "really good" instead of "elite."

  15. #88
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    Re: Who are your favorites for AL/NL MVP?

    Anyone think Puig will get some votes?
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  16. #89
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    Re: Who are your favorites for AL/NL MVP?

    Quote Originally Posted by Chip R View Post
    Anyone think Puig will get some votes?
    He definitely will. I'm guessing he'll get at least one first place vote.
    They don't think it be like it is, but it do.
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  17. #90
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    Re: Who are your favorites for AL/NL MVP?

    Quote Originally Posted by Ironman92 View Post
    OPS not an elite .875 and hit just under .300 but SS with 38 doubles, 20 triples, 30 HR, 41 SB (only 6 CS)....

    A SS with 380 Total Bases? 88 XBH?
    Defense was an afterthought. So was speed. So shortstop and steals don't matter much.

    Offensively, Rollins had an .875 OPS in a hitters ballpark. His OPS, unadjusted, ranked 17th in the NL of players who received votes in the MVP race. He tied for 10th in homers, he was tied for 16th in RBI, he was 12th in AVG and 14th in SLG.

    Offensively, and only offensively, Rollins had no reason being close to the MVP.

    Barry Larkin finished 17th in homers (among those who got a vote in the MVP race), 20th in RBI (and last among non-pitchers), 6th in average, 14th in SLG and 14th in OPS.

    Like Rollins, offensively, he had no reason being close to the MVP.

    But, the voters did take into account defense (or at the very least that they played rare defensive positions) and base running.


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