1. ## Re: Who are your favorites for AL/NL MVP?

Originally Posted by RedsManRick
You rise a good point. Maybe we should only be counting stats that were accrued during games the team won.
http://www.fangraphs.com/blogs/a-que...losing-effort/

Right on schedule.

This subject has my brain churning.

Many people go with the stock answer "MVP voting should not depend on the performance of a player's teammates."

But...what is the first criteria of MVP voting?

"(1) actual value of a player to his team, that is, strength of offense and defense"

If "actual value of a player to his team" is an equation so to speak...."to his team" is part of the equation. Meaning his unique team has some bearing on his value.

Not fair, I know...but it gets me thinking.

On the other hand...if we are only counting value in wins. What about counting things that are negative in value in losses?

3. ## Re: Who are your favorites for AL/NL MVP?

Originally Posted by kaldaniels
http://www.fangraphs.com/blogs/a-que...losing-effort/

Right on schedule.

This subject has my brain churning.

Many people go with the stock answer "MVP voting should not depend on the performance of a player's teammates."

But...what is the first criteria of MVP voting?

"(1) actual value of a player to his team, that is, strength of offense and defense"

If "actual value of a player to his team" is an equation so to speak...."to his team" is part of the equation. Meaning his unique team has some bearing on his value.

Not fair, I know...but it gets me thinking.

On the other hand...if we are only counting value in wins. What about counting things that are negative in value in losses?
If you are going to be truly considered as the MVP, your value to your team would be the same value to any other team. We aren't talking about the value of a super sub type of player on a team with a bunch of platoon types versus that same guy being on the 1976 Reds where he wouldn't get 100 at bats.

4. ## Re: Who are your favorites for AL/NL MVP?

Originally Posted by dougdirt
If you are going to be truly considered as the MVP, your value to your team would be the same value to any other team. We aren't talking about the value of a super sub type of player on a team with a bunch of platoon types versus that same guy being on the 1976 Reds where he wouldn't get 100 at bats.
I just don't believe that to be the case. We can actually see Joey Votto's WPA (by all means not the main MVP metric) for the 2013 Cincinnati Reds. Any other team is just guesswork.

Different teams have different values for players. See the Travis Wood for Sean Marshall deal. It is no stretch to say that each player has/had a different value for each team. Travis Wood is not as valuable as a 6th man on the staff.

5. ## Re: Who are your favorites for AL/NL MVP?

People are very set in their ways about how they view MVP voting, so I know I'm not going to change many minds (I'm not sold one way or another myself).

But again look at the phrase of the criteria.

actual value of a player to his team, that is, strength of offense and defense
So if I fill in the blanks...that would be

Mike Trout to the Los Angeles Angels
Miguel Cabrera to the Detroit Tigers
Joey Votto to the Cincinnati Reds

Like it or not "his team" means that player's own team. Do we just totally ignore that? If we want to be fair in evaluating performance, we do. If we are evaluating value, it can be argued we don't.

6. ## Re: Who are your favorites for AL/NL MVP?

I'd be tempted to look a bit beyond the numbers this season in the AL and give it to Robinson Cano. He's carried a team of castoffs and neverwases all season.

Miggy's had another stellar year and I couldn't complain if he wins. Trout's compiled a bunch of numbers after his team became irrelevant. Good for him, but I wouldn't give him a second thought for MVP (and, for the record, I thought A-Rod's 2003 MVP was preposterous).

Anyway, Cano's been kind of excellent for a guy that every opponent gameplanned specifically not to let him beat them.

I assume McCutchen is going to be a unanimous pick.

7. ## Likes:

Wonderful Monds (09-12-2013)

8. ## Re: Who are your favorites for AL/NL MVP?

I would vote for Matt Carpenter.

If McCutchen dominates the Reds in the six remaining games, I might then change my mind.

I don't watch much AL ball, assume it's Cabrera.

9. ## Re: Who are your favorites for AL/NL MVP?

Originally Posted by dougdirt
Defense was an afterthought. So was speed. So shortstop and steals don't matter much.

Offensively, Rollins had an .875 OPS in a hitters ballpark. His OPS, unadjusted, ranked 17th in the NL of players who received votes in the MVP race. He tied for 10th in homers, he was tied for 16th in RBI, he was 12th in AVG and 14th in SLG.

Offensively, and only offensively, Rollins had no reason being close to the MVP.

Barry Larkin finished 17th in homers (among those who got a vote in the MVP race), 20th in RBI (and last among non-pitchers), 6th in average, 14th in SLG and 14th in OPS.

Like Rollins, offensively, he had no reason being close to the MVP.

But, the voters did take into account defense (or at the very least that they played rare defensive positions) and base running.
Lol....did you use his RBI stat? Aren't RBI stats frowned upon on here?....for a lead off hitter? Lol How did he finish in runs? 1st (139).....triples? 1st (20)

It's fine I get your elite statement and I agree with the OPS and in his park, position aside was clearly not elite....but bringing out his RBI stat? C'mon you're better than that.

10. ## Re: Who are your favorites for AL/NL MVP?

Everyone has a different opinion of what the MVP criteria should be. Here is mine:

I believe the Most Valuable Player is the player that provided the most value, regardless of the team. Meaning, you take that player, and place him on any team in baseball, and there is no other player out there that would improve that team more than the MVP.

11. ## Likes:

RedEye (09-12-2013), Tom Servo (09-12-2013)

12. ## Re: Who are your favorites for AL/NL MVP?

Originally Posted by Homer Bailey
Everyone has a different opinion of what the MVP criteria should be. Here is mine:

I believe the Most Valuable Player is the player that provided the most value, regardless of the team. Meaning, you take that player, and place him on any team in baseball, and there is no other player out there that would improve that team more than the MVP.
No one plays in a vacuum. Every single player in MLB is putting up his respective numbers in a given context. Air lift him somewhere else and his performance will change, maybe for the better, maybe for the worse, maybe only a little, maybe a lot.

Beyond that, every team has different needs. For instance, Miggy Cabrera would have a bigger impact on the Yankees than Mike Trout. Trout would have a bigger impact on the Mets. And if I had to guess, Robinson Cano would provide more value to more teams than either of them just because of position scarcity.

If your position is "all I need is WAR" that's your prerogative, but my perspective is that's an awfully narrow band when considering the topic of MVP.

13. ## Re: Who are your favorites for AL/NL MVP?

I just don't see why a hypothetical best all-around position player in the league should be punished for playing on a team that could have terrible pitching.

14. ## Re: Who are your favorites for AL/NL MVP?

Value implies that something is being gained from the item that is deemed most valuable. Stats define a players performance it doesn't always define his value fully, nor does it define what the team does with that value.

You want a stat based winner then a stat based award should be issued.

Just one mans opinion.

15. ## Likes:

757690 (09-12-2013), M2 (09-12-2013)

16. ## Re: Who are your favorites for AL/NL MVP?

Originally Posted by dougdirt
If you are going to be truly considered as the MVP, your value to your team would be the same value to any other team. We aren't talking about the value of a super sub type of player on a team with a bunch of platoon types versus that same guy being on the 1976 Reds where he wouldn't get 100 at bats.
Maybe, maybe not. I don't mean to open a can of worms, but you also have to consider clutch hits, performance in the biggest games, etc. Forget the arguments about randomness and what it means for predicting future events, the MVP award is rewarding the performance within a season. So even if some of those results may scream luck of fluke, they still count toward his performance in that given season.

We've all seen guys who have one of those seasons where it seems like they always make the big defensive play or get the clutch hit. When those seasons align with a statistical season worthy of entering the MVP conversation, often those clutch plays make all the difference to some voters. And that's perfectly reasonable.

17. ## Re: Who are your favorites for AL/NL MVP?

My vote still goes to 'Cutch, barring an unforeseen catastrophe. Bonus points doing it last year only to get beat out by "guy on winning team" (Posey). Best player on a rising team, first playoff appearance in ages, total no-brainer at this stage. Feel-good old-school pick, sabr-pick, even if you take away the base-running and defense he's a top-4 hitter on a playoff team-pick.

18. ## Re: Who are your favorites for AL/NL MVP?

Originally Posted by Tom Servo
I just don't see why a hypothetical best all-around position player in the league should be punished for playing on a team that could have terrible pitching.
Not to be repetative, but the award isn't named the BAAP (Best All-Around Player) award. It's named the Most Valuable Player Award, like it or not. I know The Sporting News gave out a Player of the Year award, and might still. That would fit the award you're looking for.

19. ## Re: Who are your favorites for AL/NL MVP?

Originally Posted by Tom Servo
I just don't see why a hypothetical best all-around position player in the league should be punished for playing on a team that could have terrible pitching.

B) If a player compiles stats for an inconsequential team that's just playing out the string, that's a whole less pressure to perform than for a guy who's taking his ABs for a team that's in the hunt. Trout's triumph over ennui gets my respect, but numbers for the sake of numbers doesn't tick my value register.

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