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Thread: Reds still in on Alexander Guerrero !

  1. #61
    Member paulrichjr's Avatar
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    Re: Reds still in on Alexander Guerrero !

    Quote Originally Posted by M2 View Post
    He's a free agent right now. MLB organizations have spent no time or money developing the guy. Why would they be entitled to hold his rights beyond whatever contact he signs?
    This has been covered before with Chapman. He still has to follow the same rules as everyone else. He would be eligible for arbitration in 5 years but not free agency.

    If this were the case everyone that isn't drafted would be a free agent after each contract.
    Last edited by paulrichjr; 10-16-2013 at 01:13 PM.
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  3. #62
    Daffy Duck RedTeamGo!'s Avatar
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    Re: Reds still in on Alexander Guerrero !

    Quote Originally Posted by BungleBengals View Post
    The pitching in that league may not be up to par with the pitching in the MLB, but I do not think that you can deny that Cuban hitters have done pretty well in this league. Puig and Cespedes are the big names, but there are also guys like Alexei Ramirez, Jose Iglesias, and Yunel Escobar. Don't forget that one of the better parts of the BRM was a Cuban in Tony Perez. Also, there have been some pretty good pitchers to come out of Cuba too. Namely, Chapman and Jose Fernandez.

    If I were the Reds I would take the chance on either (or both) of Guerrero and Abreu. Guerrero's numbers are in line with Tulo's and the expected price is 1/3 that of Tulo. And Abreu's expected price is around 1/2 that of the better performing 3B in MLB including Miggy, Beltre, Zimmerman, Young.
    I just do not see how Guerrero's numbers are in line with Tulo. Tulo is putting up these numbers at the MLB level, Guerrero puts them up in a league equal to single A.

  4. #63
    Member mdccclxix's Avatar
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    Re: Reds still in on Alexander Guerrero !

    Quote Originally Posted by BungleBengals View Post
    The pitching in that league may not be up to par with the pitching in the MLB, but I do not think that you can deny that Cuban hitters have done pretty well in this league. Puig and Cespedes are the big names, but there are also guys like Alexei Ramirez, Jose Iglesias, and Yunel Escobar. Don't forget that one of the better parts of the BRM was a Cuban in Tony Perez. Also, there have been some pretty good pitchers to come out of Cuba too. Namely, Chapman and Jose Fernandez.

    If I were the Reds I would take the chance on either (or both) of Guerrero and Abreu. Guerrero's numbers are in line with Tulo's and the expected price is 1/3 that of Tulo. And Abreu's expected price is around 1/2 that of the better performing 3B in MLB including Miggy, Beltre, Zimmerman, Young.
    Cespedes struggled with OBP this year and Puig will likely have an adjustment next year as well. But I agree Cuba has been able to produce, for sure. My point is that it is an offense happy league, so beware of just taking numbers and applying them to mlb. FWIW, I think the prospect age adage of 23 or less for an mlb debut is still applicable here, as we've seen best from Chapman and Puig so far.

  5. #64
    Member mdccclxix's Avatar
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    Re: Reds still in on Alexander Guerrero !

    I think I'd rather sign Abreu and jam him in the lineup somewhere because his offensive upside is worth it. That's just crazy talk though.

  6. #65
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    Re: Reds still in on Alexander Guerrero !

    Quote Originally Posted by PepperJack View Post
    I think you are the only one who thinks that Abreu has any legit chance to be a 3B from everything that I have read on him.

    Jose Fernandez, while from Cuba went to HS in Florida like Alonso and Grandal.

    Tulowitski is a legit SS, and proven star. Guererro is neither of those at this time. So that's a rough comp to make for him.

    http://mlb.mlb.com/news/article/mlb/...&vkey=news_mlb

    Although Abreu profiles more as a first baseman, he took some grounders at third base. At that position, he moved around similar to Detroit's Miguel Cabrera.

    Projections are Abreu is not a plus defender at third.
    I said that he could play 3B. I never said he would be great there. That being said, Detroit has a below average 3B, yet one of the best offenses in the league and they are competing in the LCS. I have said it many times in recent threads: I think that we should sacrifice a little bit of defense and try to gain a lot of offense.

    I agree it is hard to compare Guerrero and Tulo without any sample size of Guerrero in MLB, but he still projects to be an offensive, power hitting shortstop which is what we need. Cozart did well down in the second half, but I think that people tend to forget his first half of the season.
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    Re: Reds still in on Alexander Guerrero !

    Quote Originally Posted by mdccclxix View Post
    I think I'd rather sign Abreu and jam him in the lineup somewhere because his offensive upside is worth it. That's just crazy talk though.
    That is what I am trying to argue. I liked Guerrero first, but it seems now that the Dodgers are pushing for him again, but if we could steal Abreu, especially when the Pirates are showing interest, that is a double whammy. I think Abreu, wherever he fits in on defense, can be our offensive answer. Last year we lacked the power hitting righty batter. He could do that for us and fit right between Votto and Bruce to avoid anybody being pitched around.
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    Re: Reds still in on Alexander Guerrero !

    Quote Originally Posted by BungleBengals View Post
    http://mlb.mlb.com/news/article/mlb/...&vkey=news_mlb



    I said that he could play 3B. I never said he would be great there. That being said, Detroit has a below average 3B, yet one of the best offenses in the league and they are competing in the LCS. I have said it many times in recent threads: I think that we should sacrifice a little bit of defense and try to gain a lot of offense.

    http://www.mlbtraderumors.com/2013/1...iel-abreu.html


    Reports vary on Abreu's ability to contribute beyond his bat. One scout told Crasnick Abreu is "all bat," an Edgar Martinez type, while another felt he could be a solid first baseman. The bar is raised for a bat-only player, and it's certainly possible to hit 25-30 home runs and still be replacement level, as Raul Ibanez did this year. As far as young DHs go, Billy Butler has a .298/.364/.459 line in seven seasons, yet has never had a season in which he was worth three wins above replacement. Still, if Abreu settles in as a two-win player, he'll be worth a $10MM salary.

    At 6'2" and 250 pounds, Abreu is not nearly the athlete Yasiel Puig or Yoenis Cespedes is, though Crasnick says Abreu has ramped up his conditioning of late. He's still likely to be a negative in baserunning.

    I am totally on board with adding legit bats whenever the Reds can get them. I was interested in Guererro too, but the Reds don't seem to be a match at this point.

    However, trying to cram Abreu into a 3B because Cabrera does it, doesn't seem like a great idea. That said if the Reds do it, and he rakes you won't hear me complain.

    I think the Reds will find some offense this winter, but I don't think Jocketty will sacrifice alot of defense for it.

  9. #68
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    Re: Reds still in on Alexander Guerrero !

    Quote Originally Posted by PepperJack View Post
    I am totally on board with adding legit bats whenever the Reds can get them. I was interested in Guererro too, but the Reds don't seem to be a match at this point.

    However, trying to cram Abreu into a 3B because Cabrera does it, doesn't seem like a great idea. That said if the Reds do it, and he rakes you won't hear me complain.

    I think the Reds will find some offense this winter, but I don't think Jocketty will sacrifice alot of defense for it.
    Crazy idea, but can Votto play a different position? Wasn't the greatest defensive 1B this year anyways. Quick look on Baseball Reference shows he did play some OF and 3B in the minors.
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  10. #69
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    Re: Reds still in on Alexander Guerrero !

    Quote Originally Posted by BungleBengals View Post
    Crazy idea, but can Votto play a different position? Wasn't the greatest defensive 1B this year anyways. Quick look on Baseball Reference shows he did play some OF and 3B in the minors.
    No.
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  12. #70
    Daffy Duck RedTeamGo!'s Avatar
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    Re: Reds still in on Alexander Guerrero !

    Quote Originally Posted by BungleBengals View Post
    Crazy idea, but can Votto play a different position? Wasn't the greatest defensive 1B this year anyways. Quick look on Baseball Reference shows he did play some OF and 3B in the minors.
    It does not matter if Votto can or cannot play OF or 3B - he will not, nor should he. Why in the world would the Reds move the best 1B in the National League (with Cabrera playing 3B, most like MLB) out of position for an unproven player that has never even played in the minor leagues? Come on dude, take a step back from the Puig hype machine and understand just because he is Cuban does not mean he is going to take over baseball overnight.

    This reminds me of world soccer clubs signing Brazillian players in the early 2000s simply because they were Brazillian.

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    Re: Reds still in on Alexander Guerrero !

    Quote Originally Posted by BungleBengals View Post
    Crazy idea, but can Votto play a different position? Wasn't the greatest defensive 1B this year anyways. Quick look on Baseball Reference shows he did play some OF and 3B in the minors.

    Votto from all reports wasn't willing to go to LF to make room for Alonso, and with his knee that ship has likely sailed anyway.

  14. #72
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    Re: Reds still in on Alexander Guerrero !

    Quote Originally Posted by BungleBengals View Post
    http://mlb.mlb.com/news/article/mlb/...&vkey=news_mlb



    Detroit has a below average 3B, yet one of the best offenses in the league and they are competing in the LCS. I have said it many times in recent threads: I think that we should sacrifice a little bit of defense and try to gain a lot of offense.
    Cabrera = top 10 hitter in the history of baseball (maybe top 5, and by the end of his career, maybe all time)

    Abreu = unproven talent that is unlikely to be even a top 10 hitter in the NL central.

  15. #73
    Member BungleBengals's Avatar
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    Re: Reds still in on Alexander Guerrero !

    Quote Originally Posted by RedTeamGo! View Post
    It does not matter if Votto can or cannot play OF or 3B - he will not, nor should he. Why in the world would the Reds move the best 1B in the National League (with Cabrera playing 3B, most like MLB) out of position for an unproven player that has never even played in the minor leagues? Come on dude, take a step back from the Puig hype machine and understand just because he is Cuban does not mean he is going to take over baseball overnight.

    This reminds me of world soccer clubs signing Brazillian players in the early 2000s simply because they were Brazillian.
    Hey man, we have 6 months to discuss this stuff until Opening Day. I am taking a step back and trying to think of ways where we can improve that haven't already been discussed in the past 2 weeks since our season ended.

    IIRC, Pete Rose changed positions plenty of times to make room for better offensive players in the BRM lineup. I know Votto did not want to move to LF for Alonso and honestly, that makes me question whether Votto is in it for the team or for his own reasons such as stats and money. Heck, you can say Cabrera is out of position at 3B, but the dude is a hitter and it made way for Prince Fielder too. Basically, Cabrera is out of position, but he made it harder for teams to pitch around him.

    Yes, Abreu is unproven and Puig hype may impact my view of him, but regardless, scouts say he has tons of power and a great bat. Stats back it up and I believe I read that Abreu had the Cuban Triple Crowd the last 2 years or something.
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  16. #74
    Daffy Duck RedTeamGo!'s Avatar
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    Re: Reds still in on Alexander Guerrero !

    Quote Originally Posted by BungleBengals View Post
    Hey man, we have 6 months to discuss this stuff until Opening Day. I am taking a step back and trying to think of ways where we can improve that haven't already been discussed in the past 2 weeks since our season ended.

    IIRC, Pete Rose changed positions plenty of times to make room for better offensive players in the BRM lineup. I know Votto did not want to move to LF for Alonso and honestly, that makes me question whether Votto is in it for the team or for his own reasons such as stats and money. Heck, you can say Cabrera is out of position at 3B, but the dude is a hitter and it made way for Prince Fielder too. Basically, Cabrera is out of position, but he made it harder for teams to pitch around him.

    Yes, Abreu is unproven and Puig hype may impact my view of him, but regardless, scouts say he has tons of power and a great bat. Stats back it up and I believe I read that Abreu had the Cuban Triple Crowd the last 2 years or something.
    The difference is that Cabrera played as a 3B in the minors as well as the time early in his career at the major league level. Votto was drafted as a catcher, but has played 1B for basically all of his professional career.

  17. #75
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    Re: Reds still in on Alexander Guerrero !

    Quote Originally Posted by RedTeamGo! View Post
    The difference is that Cabrera played as a 3B in the minors as well as the time early in his career at the major league level. Votto was drafted as a catcher, but has played 1B for basically all of his professional career.
    I agree that is it not the smartest move or even in the cards to move Votto around the diamond. But with our pitching, I wonder really how valuable the best defenders would be. I think at some point you would expect someone to have to learn a new position to make way for better offensive output. If we had Matt Adams on our bench, would you play him out of place or ask Votto, the more athletic player, to try to learn a new position?
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