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Thread: Votto Hitting verses walking

  1. #31
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    Re: Countdown to 300/300

    Quote Originally Posted by Lewdog View Post
    Welsh and Brantley studied hitters constantly. Effective pitchers know just as much about hitting as they do pitching, it's what makes them effective. In war you can't expect to win if you don't know your opponent.
    No, they really don't know as much about hitting as they do pitching. What makes them effective is their talent first and foremost.

    What the heck does war have to do with anything in baseball?

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  3. #32
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    Re: Votto Hitting verses walking

    Quote Originally Posted by dougdirt View Post
    Choo has the best hitter on the team batting behind him who moves him over a whole bunch because he also gets on base at an elite level. Votto on the flip side, has generally had an out making machine batting directly behind him this season (Brandon Phillips), who hasn't moved him over all that much because he makes a bunch of outs.

    Joey Votto deserves a lot more credit than anyone for his runs total. Why? Because no one can drive him in if he doesn't first get on base.
    What? BP is the second highest RBI total on the team and is hitting .262 which is one of it's lowest points all season. It was much higher before, compared to the guys hitting behind Choo like Cozart, Robinson, Frazier, etc. I'd almost guarantee you that the average batting percentage out of the #2 hole this year is .250 or less which is much worse than Phillips. Bruce is the biggest RBI guy on the team, and he is 4 spots behind Choo, so chances are most of the time Choo was driven in, it wasn't by Bruce.

  4. #33
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    Re: Countdown to 300/300

    Quote Originally Posted by Lewdog View Post
    If this is true, then Votto has the highest OBP % so he should be hitting first right? You want the guy that gets on base most to get the most at bats so he can get on base the most? Then to set the line up each night, the coaches should just go down the line based on OBP. I can't say that I have ever seen a lineup set that way. Ever.
    Just because it hasn't been done that way doesn't mean it isn't ideal. No one had ever gone out there and tried just swing as hard as they could and hit home runs until Babe Ruth. No one had ever decided to put on a defensive shift before against big time pull hitters, until someone did it. No one ever tried a zone defense before in other sports.... until someone did it.

    But no, I would bat Votto second. I don't want to waste his power (or Choo's for that matter) batting leadoff where his power is partially wasted by the lack of runners on base in front of him.

  5. #34
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    Re: Countdown to 300/300

    Quote Originally Posted by dougdirt View Post
    No, they really don't know as much about hitting as they do pitching. What makes them effective is their talent first and foremost.

    What the heck does war have to do with anything in baseball?
    Because it's a competition, how can you expect to beat the other guy if you don't know what their strength's and weaknesses are? Pitchers study hit charts of the opposing team all the time. They no what to expect in certain situations, they know what pitches to throw to guys to hopefully get them to hit a ball to a certain spot, they know strategy...you make them sound like a pitching machine on the mound with all circuits and wires and no brain. These guys that get to be color guys after their career usually get there because they have more knowledge about the game than the average player.

  6. #35
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    Re: Votto Hitting verses walking

    Quote Originally Posted by Lewdog View Post
    What? BP is the second highest RBI total on the team and is hitting .262 which is one of it's lowest points all season. It was much higher before, compared to the guys hitting behind Choo like Cozart, Robinson, Frazier, etc. I'd almost guarantee you that the average batting percentage out of the #2 hole this year is .250 or less which is much worse than Phillips. Bruce is the biggest RBI guy on the team, and he is 4 spots behind Choo, so chances are most of the time Choo was driven in, it wasn't by Bruce.
    I could not care one bit what the batting average of any player is. I care about how often they get on base, not how often they get a hit. Hits are important, but they only tell you part of the story.

  7. #36
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    Re: Countdown to 300/300

    Quote Originally Posted by Lewdog View Post
    Because it's a competition, how can you expect to beat the other guy if you don't know what their strength's and weaknesses are? Pitchers study hit charts of the opposing team all the time. They no what to expect in certain situations, they know what pitches to throw to guys to hopefully get them to hit a ball to a certain spot, they know strategy...you make them sound like a pitching machine on the mound with all circuits and wires and no brain. These guys that get to be color guys after their career usually get there because they have more knowledge about the game than the average player.
    How can I expect to beat them? By being more talented.

    The guys that get announcing jobs are the ones who can formulate a sentence. The guys who are really good at baseball knowledge wind up working in front offices, not working for Fox Sports or ESPN.

    If Welsh and Brantley want to tell me about pitching, I will listen. But when they start talking about hitting, I tend to tune out. Joe Morgan was one of, if not the best hitter to ever put on a Reds uniform. He doesn't seem to understand why he was such a great hitter though. He doesn't understand the value of the walk (something he excelled at doing as a hitter). Just because you are good at doing something doesn't mean you understand why you were good at it or have a clue as to the strategy behind something. It means you were good at executing it.

  8. #37
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    Re: Countdown to 300/300

    Quote Originally Posted by dougdirt View Post
    Just because it hasn't been done that way doesn't mean it isn't ideal. No one had ever gone out there and tried just swing as hard as they could and hit home runs until Babe Ruth. No one had ever decided to put on a defensive shift before against big time pull hitters, until someone did it. No one ever tried a zone defense before in other sports.... until someone did it.

    But no, I would bat Votto second. I don't want to waste his power (or Choo's for that matter) batting leadoff where his power is partially wasted by the lack of runners on base in front of him.
    So your saying that ever coach since 1869 has been doing it all wrong?

    See even you are starting to make concessions to your idea. First you wanted the guys that get on base the most to get the most at bats, but now you are saying you want Votto to bat second instead. This is starting to sound more complicated than the English language.

    So when Hamilton gets moved into the lineup permanently where are you going to bat him? He isn't going to have a .400 OBP, it's going to be more around .350-.375, so do you bate him 6th even with his speed? Of course not because he can turn a single or walk into a 'double' or 'triple' by stealing a base or two. That's part of the job of a leadoff hitter.

  9. #38
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    Re: Countdown to 300/300

    Quote Originally Posted by Lewdog View Post
    So your saying that ever coach since 1869 has been doing it all wrong?
    Yes, I am. For 100 years fast guys, regardless of their ability to actually reach base, hit leadoff. If the guy could actually get on base, awesome. But when guys with sub .300 OBP are batting leadoff, and it happened often, it was flat out stupid.

    So when Hamilton gets moved into the lineup permanently where are you going to bat him? He isn't going to have a .400 OBP, it's going to be more around .350-.375, so do you bate him 6th even with his speed? Of course not because he can turn a single or walk into a 'double' or 'triple' by stealing a base or two. That's part of the job of a leadoff hitter.
    Until Hamilton shows he can get on base at least .330, I am batting him 7th. If Hamilton gets a .350-.375 OBP, I will be the happiest person alive. I don't think he gets there. I bat him lower if he can't get on base at a .330 clip and let him run wild for the bottom of the lineup where guys don't have the power to drive him in from first base, so let him steal in front of the guys with weaker bats and let him score from 2nd or 3rd on their hits or contact oriented outs.

    The job of a leadoff hitter is to get on base. His job isn't to steal bases. That is an added bonus, but his main job is to get on base so the big boppers can drive him in.

  10. #39
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    Re: Countdown to 300/300

    Quote Originally Posted by dougdirt View Post
    I could not care one bit what the batting average of any player is. I care about how often they get on base, not how often they get a hit. Hits are important, but they only tell you part of the story.
    Look up the numbers, Phillips numbers are still much better all around than the guys that have hit second this year. This is a point you can't win.

    Quote Originally Posted by dougdirt View Post
    How can I expect to beat them? By being more talented.

    The guys that get announcing jobs are the ones who can formulate a sentence. The guys who are really good at baseball knowledge wind up working in front offices, not working for Fox Sports or ESPN.

    If Welsh and Brantley want to tell me about pitching, I will listen. But when they start talking about hitting, I tend to tune out. Joe Morgan was one of, if not the best hitter to ever put on a Reds uniform. He doesn't seem to understand why he was such a great hitter though. He doesn't understand the value of the walk (something he excelled at doing as a hitter). Just because you are good at doing something doesn't mean you understand why you were good at it or have a clue as to the strategy behind something. It means you were good at executing it.

    If you knew your history it doesn't work that way, and Greg Maddox would tell you the same thing about pitching. There has been plenty of guys with a 100 mph fastball and a curve ball that can fall off the table with more natural talent than Maddox, but they will never be able to hold his jock.

    Knowing your opponents weakness is what allows players to succeed. Talent helps, but if the other player has more talent than you do you just tee it up for them? Of course not.

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    Re: Countdown to 300/300

    Quote Originally Posted by Lewdog View Post
    So when Hamilton gets moved into the lineup permanently where are you going to bat him? He isn't going to have a .400 OBP, it's going to be more around .350-.375, so do you bate him 6th even with his speed? Of course not because he can turn a single or walk into a 'double' or 'triple' by stealing a base or two. That's part of the job of a leadoff hitter.
    If Hamilton gets on base at a .350-.375 clip, he'll be a perennial All Star. Those are some lofty expectations for the young speedster.

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    Re: Countdown to 300/300

    Quote Originally Posted by Lewdog View Post
    If you knew your history it doesn't work that way, and Greg Maddox would tell you the same thing about pitching. There has been plenty of guys with a 100 mph fastball and a curve ball that can fall off the table with more natural talent than Maddox, but they will never be able to hold his jock.

    Knowing your opponents weakness is what allows players to succeed. Talent helps, but if the other player has more talent than you do you just tee it up for them? Of course not.
    Velocity isn't the only talent that a pitcher can possess. Command/control is also a skill, and Maddux's was impeccable.

  13. #42
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    Re: Countdown to 300/300

    Quote Originally Posted by dougdirt View Post
    Yes, I am. For 100 years fast guys, regardless of their ability to actually reach base, hit leadoff. If the guy could actually get on base, awesome. But when guys with sub .300 OBP are batting leadoff, and it happened often, it was flat out stupid.


    Until Hamilton shows he can get on base at least .330, I am batting him 7th. If Hamilton gets a .350-.375 OBP, I will be the happiest person alive. I don't think he gets there. I bat him lower if he can't get on base at a .330 clip and let him run wild for the bottom of the lineup where guys don't have the power to drive him in from first base, so let him steal in front of the guys with weaker bats and let him score from 2nd or 3rd on their hits or contact oriented outs.

    The job of a leadoff hitter is to get on base. His job isn't to steal bases. That is an added bonus, but his main job is to get on base so the big boppers can drive him in.
    You are just still bitter from the Drew Stubbs experiment. Hamilton is not Stubbs, he doesn't think he has the spirit of Babe Ruth in him, and knows his job is to either walk or at least make contact and put the ball on the ground in play where he always has a chance to leg it out. Dusty Baker already disagrees with you as Hamilton has been batting at the top of the order except when they were playing with the DH and Choo in the lineup, they batted Hamilton 9th as basically the 'second' leadoff hitter based on the Tony LaRussa idea.

  14. #43
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    Re: Countdown to 300/300

    Quote Originally Posted by Lewdog View Post
    Look up the numbers, Phillips numbers are still much better all around than the guys that have hit second this year. This is a point you can't win.
    How did we get into a discussion about Phillips batting second?

    If you knew your history it doesn't work that way, and Greg Maddox would tell you the same thing about pitching. There has been plenty of guys with a 100 mph fastball and a curve ball that can fall off the table with more natural talent than Maddox, but they will never be able to hold his jock.

    Knowing your opponents weakness is what allows players to succeed. Talent helps, but if the other player has more talent than you do you just tee it up for them? Of course not.
    Trust me, I know my history. Greg Maddox was one of the best ever because he had command that was better than just about anyone ever. He also benefited from a very large strikezone that he got that most other pitchers didn't.

    Knowing the other players helps, but it isn't nearly as important as what you can do on the mound in terms of talent. Locate the baseball. Make it move or throw it hard.

  15. #44
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    Re: Countdown to 300/300

    Quote Originally Posted by Lewdog View Post
    You are just still bitter from the Drew Stubbs experiment. Hamilton is not Stubbs, he doesn't think he has the spirit of Babe Ruth in him, and knows his job is to either walk or at least make contact and put the ball on the ground in play where he always has a chance to leg it out. Dusty Baker already disagrees with you as Hamilton has been batting at the top of the order except when they were playing with the DH and Choo in the lineup, they batted Hamilton 9th as basically the 'second' leadoff hitter based on the Tony LaRussa idea.
    I am not bitter about Drew Stubbs at all. If Dusty Baker disagrees with me on something related to baseball strategy I feel very confident that I am right.

  16. #45
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    Re: Votto Hitting verses walking

    I am done with this.

    Batters job: Get on base, acquire bases. Nothing else they do is even remotely as important as those two things.


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