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Thread: Votto Hitting verses walking

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    Votto Hitting verses walking

    If only Votto was faster and could hit second instead of third...all his walks are great, but that hurts his RBI total and the walk only advances a runner one base and if no one is on first, no bases.

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    Re: Countdown to 300/300

    Quote Originally Posted by Lewdog View Post
    If only Votto was faster and could hit second instead of third...all his walks are great, but that hurts his RBI total and the walk only advances a runner one base and if no one is on first, no bases.
    I really hope this was a sarcastic comment. I'll take a guy who hits .307/.433/.497 (.931 OPS) with ~25HRs hitting third for my team any day of the week, RBIs be damned.

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    Re: Countdown to 300/300

    Quote Originally Posted by Alpha Zero View Post
    I really hope this was a sarcastic comment. I'll take a guy who hits .307/.433/.497 (.931 OPS) with ~25HRs hitting third for my team any day of the week, RBIs be damned.
    That wasn't the point. Pete set the record as a lead off or hitting second a great deal of the time. Generally you want your third hitter in the line up to have more pop and be able to move the runners into scoring position. Many times this year color commentators and others have commented that with a guy on second and no outs, Votto will walk instead of swinging away and moving the runner to third so he could be driven in with a sac fly. Not only does he not move the runner over by walking, but because he isn't the fastest guy, he then sets up the double play or force play at third. I can't tell you how many times that's happened and it ends up with a guy on third with two outs and the Reds end up not scoring. It's basic baseball. Votto needs to take the sword and move the runner over instead of walking so much.

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    Re: Countdown to 300/300

    Sure, if you never want to score more than one run in an inning, you'd be right.

    A walk is a positive result in nearly every instance. If it wasn't, the pitcher would walk you intentionally, right?

    jvs

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    Re: Countdown to 300/300

    Quote Originally Posted by PTjvs View Post
    Sure, if you never want to score more than one run in an inning, you'd be right.

    A walk is a positive result in nearly every instance. If it wasn't, the pitcher would walk you intentionally, right?

    jvs
    Many times pitchers do walk Votto intentionally by not giving him anything to hit. If they get down 2-0 or 3-0 in the count they just walk him instead of serving up something for him.

    I may be wrong, but I think Brandon Phillips leads the team in grounding into double plays.

    Despite having the #2 and #4 guys in all of of the MLB in OBP, the Reds are 11th in the Majors in runs, so they are doing something wrong?
    Last edited by Lewdog; 09-22-2013 at 08:06 PM.

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    Re: Countdown to 300/300

    Quote Originally Posted by Lewdog View Post
    Many times pitchers do walk Votto intentionally by not giving him anything to hit. If they get down 2-0 or 3-0 in the count they just walk him instead of serving up something for him.

    I may be wrong, but I think Brandon Phillips leads the team in grounding into double plays.

    Despite having the #2 and #4 guys in all of of the MLB in OBP, the Reds are 11th in the Majors in runs, so they are doing something wrong?
    Since they are 3rd in the NL in runs, I would guess:

    Having pitchers hit.

    jvs

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    Re: Countdown to 300/300

    Quote Originally Posted by PTjvs View Post
    Since they are 3rd in the NL in runs, I would guess:

    Having pitchers hit.

    jvs
    You can use that if you want, but I'm repeating what the 'so called' experts are saying, and it makes sense. You can't play for the big inning all the time, especially in today's game. 'Little ball' and great pitching is what wins championships.

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    Re: Countdown to 300/300

    Quote Originally Posted by Lewdog View Post
    You can use that if you want, but I'm repeating what the 'so called' experts are saying, and it makes sense. You can't play for the big inning all the time, especially in today's game. 'Little ball' and great pitching is what wins championships.
    So you want Votto to swing at bad/borderline pitches and "fall on the sword" as you put it so that he can move runners from second to third? Brilliant. I'll take the walk over that scenario almost every single time.

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    Re: Countdown to 300/300

    Quote Originally Posted by Lewdog View Post
    You can use that if you want, but I'm repeating what the 'so called' experts are saying, and it makes sense. You can't play for the big inning all the time, especially in today's game. 'Little ball' and great pitching is what wins championships.
    Not sure who your anonymous "so called" experts are, but many experts disagree with that premise.

    Joey Votto is the best hitter on this team, and has had the best year. The Reds are 2nd in the NL in OBP, and 3rd in runs scored. They clearly aren't having some issue where they can get guys on base, but can't score them. I honestly don't understand what your argument is.

    jvs

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    Re: Countdown to 300/300

    Quote Originally Posted by Alpha Zero View Post
    So you want Votto to swing at bad/borderline pitches and "fall on the sword" as you put it so that he can move runners from second to third? Brilliant. I'll take the walk over that scenario almost every single time.

    That's not the point. They are saying, and I agree, that Votto takes too many borderline pitches looking for a walk when he could just as easily advance the runner by making contact and maybe getting a hit. It's basic baseball tactics. If people are so happy with Votto's OBP % including walks, they need to hit him second in the lineup, but the problem is his speed and the fact that he will then be susceptible to being the lead runner in double plays and being thrown out on sacrifices. So it's a catch 22.

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    Re: Countdown to 300/300

    Quote Originally Posted by Lewdog View Post
    That's not the point. They are saying, and I agree, that Votto takes too many borderline pitches looking for a walk when he could just as easily advance the runner by making contact and maybe getting a hit. It's basic baseball tactics. If people are so happy with Votto's OBP % including walks, they need to hit him second in the lineup, but the problem is his speed and the fact that he will then be susceptible to being the lead runner in double plays and being thrown out on sacrifices. So it's a catch 22.
    Ted Williams disagree with the above, and so do I.

    jvs

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    Re: Countdown to 300/300

    Quote Originally Posted by PTjvs View Post
    Ted Williams disagree with the above, and so do I.

    jvs

    Ted Williams had power and drove in runs, he won a triple crown. Sooo...he isn't even relevant to this conversation.

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    Re: Countdown to 300/300

    Quote Originally Posted by Lewdog View Post
    Ted Williams had power and drove in runs, he won a triple crown. Sooo...he isn't even relevant to this conversation.
    Of course he is. Ted Williams is absolutely famous for refusing to swing at a ball. Votto has based his hitting philosophy around Ted's book, and has said so many times in interviews.

    "A good hitter can hit a pitch in a good spot three times better than a great hitter can hit a ball in a questionable spot."

    -Ted Williams

    The point is that the school of thought you are expressing is just one way to look at it, and many great baseball minds, including Ted, would strongly disagree with you.

    The ONLY area where the Reds offense has really excelled this year is in Votto & Choo's OBP, and yet the Reds are 3rd in the NL in scoring. The reason why the offense has been as good as it has been this year is BECAUSE Choo & Votto get on base at a great clip, not in spite of it.

    jvs
    Last edited by PTjvs; 09-22-2013 at 09:23 PM.

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    Re: Countdown to 300/300

    Quote Originally Posted by PTjvs View Post
    Of course he is. Ted Williams is absolutely famous for refusing to swing at a ball. Votto has based his hitting philosophy around Ted's book, and has said so many times in interviews.

    "A good hitter can hit a pitch in a good spot three times better than a great hitter can hit a ball in a questionable spot."

    -Ted Williams

    The point is that the school of thought you are expressing is just one way to look at it, and many great baseball minds, including Ted, would strongly disagree with you.

    The ONLY area where the Reds offense has really excelled this year is in Votto & Choo's OBP, and yet the Reds are 3rd in the NL in scoring. The reason why the offense has been what it has been this year is BECAUSE Choo & Votto get base at a great clip, not in spite of it.

    jvs


    Then I guess we'll have to agree to disagree because I'd take a man on third with one out all day long. I'm not talking about Votto swinging at bad pitches, but color commentators have said many times that he will take a borderline pitch a lot more often than swing at it.

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    Re: Countdown to 300/300

    Quote Originally Posted by Lewdog View Post
    Then I guess we'll have to agree to disagree because I'd take a man on third with one out all day long. I'm not talking about Votto swinging at bad pitches, but color commentators have said many times that he will take a borderline pitch a lot more often than swing at it.
    Those same commentators often refer to a "borderline" pitch as a "pitcher's pitch".

    jvs


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