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Thread: Votto Hitting verses walking

  1. #16
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    Re: Countdown to 300/300

    Quote Originally Posted by Lewdog View Post
    Ted Williams had power and drove in runs, he won a triple crown. Sooo...he isn't even relevant to this conversation.
    You seem to indicate that Votto is a slap hitter or something. In every full season that Votto has played, he has posted at least 30 doubles and 24 HRs. That isn't quite elite power, but he can obviously hit the ball with authority when he gets a pitch that he can handle. Again, he is a great number three hitter and is probably one of the 2 or 3 best all around hitters in the game right now. Let's appreciate him for what he is. He combines high average with an unbelievable walk rate and solidly above average power numbers. He is a slightly below average runner, but seriously, he does so much so well and is a perennial MVP candidate.

    And FYI, Votto was pretty dang close to a triple crown in 2010 when he took home the NL MVP trophy.
    Last edited by Alpha Zero; 09-23-2013 at 07:38 AM.

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  4. #17
    Member tomnuetten's Avatar
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    Re: Countdown to 300/300

    Quote Originally Posted by Lewdog View Post
    I'm not talking about Votto swinging at bad pitches, but color commentators have said many times that he will take a borderline pitch a lot more often than swing at it.
    commentators?! so we´re judging a player by the words and opinions of commentators?

    I don´t know how many thread had discussed how bad the reds commentators are.....

  5. #18
    Moderator RedlegJake's Avatar
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    Votto Hitting verses walking

    Members who have been here awhile know this has been hashed out many times but new members ARE new - let them have their go at it....but you guys might want to search the ORG archives before bringing this up once you get access there - it's been done many, many times.

    I moved these posts from the 300/300 thread to stop the hijacking. New members - feel free to discuss your thoughts. The two camps shown in these first posts pretty much show the classic split.

  6. #19
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    Re: Countdown to 300/300

    Quote Originally Posted by Lewdog View Post
    Then I guess we'll have to agree to disagree because I'd take a man on third with one out all day long.

    I'm really not sure why people would rather have a man on 3rd with 1 out instead of a men on first and 2nd with 0 outs.


    And why is it Joey's fault that BP is a GIDP machine? Isn't that BP's problem and not Joey's?


    Give me 1st and 2nd with 0 outs and Bruce at the plate all day.

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  8. #20
    Member Lewdog's Avatar
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    Re: Votto Hitting verses walking

    Quote Originally Posted by RedlegJake View Post
    Members who have been here awhile know this has been hashed out many times but new members ARE new - let them have their go at it....but you guys might want to search the ORG archives before bringing this up once you get access there - it's been done many, many times.

    I moved these posts from the 300/300 thread to stop the hijacking. New members - feel free to discuss your thoughts. The two camps shown in these first posts pretty much show the classic split.
    Sorry it wasn't meant as a hijack but more to show that I don't think him breaking Rose's record is that great of an accomplishment to brag about for a #3 hitter. Rose was a leadoff or #2 hitter a great deal of the time, and it was his job to get on base.

  9. #21
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    Re: Countdown to 300/300

    Quote Originally Posted by SlimJim11 View Post
    I'm really not sure why people would rather have a man on 3rd with 1 out instead of a men on first and 2nd with 0 outs.


    And why is it Joey's fault that BP is a GIDP machine? Isn't that BP's problem and not Joey's?


    Give me 1st and 2nd with 0 outs and Bruce at the plate all day.
    Different positions in the lineup have different jobs and responsibilities expected of them right? You expect a clean up hitter to drive in runs right? You expect a #5 hitter to be almost as the same as a clean up hitter in order to protect the clean hitter and do the same type of thing right? A #3 hitter is supposed to be a contact man that gets hits and moves the runners into scoring position. Getting a ton of walks, especially if you aren't a gazelle on the base paths only sets up the double play and the possibility of the other team getting out of the inning with no runs allowed. Have you ever thought that maybe Phillips is a GIDP machine often times because he has a not so fast Votto sitting at first base? How many times have you heard the color guys say that maybe Dusty should do a hit and run to avoid it? It is what it is.

    Votto doesn't have consistent power and walks too much to be the right #3 guy in the order. Personally, I say next year with Hamilton who can steal a base or two and has the speed to score from first on a double easily, bat Votto second instead of putting .250 hitters like Cozart there and giving away an easy out with the big bats coming to the plate.

  10. #22
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    Re: Countdown to 300/300

    Quote Originally Posted by Lewdog View Post
    Then I guess we'll have to agree to disagree because I'd take a man on third with one out all day long. I'm not talking about Votto swinging at bad pitches, but color commentators have said many times that he will take a borderline pitch a lot more often than swing at it.
    Color commentators are not experts. The sooner everyone figures that out, the smarter fans are going to become.

  11. #23
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    Re: Votto Hitting verses walking

    Quote Originally Posted by Lewdog View Post
    Sorry it wasn't meant as a hijack but more to show that I don't think him breaking Rose's record is that great of an accomplishment to brag about for a #3 hitter. Rose was a leadoff or #2 hitter a great deal of the time, and it was his job to get on base.
    The job of every hitter is to get on base. If a hitter goes to the plate and isn't trying to get on base, I don't want him going to the plate at all. If you don't make outs, you are going to score runs. Joey Votto produces a ton of runs. More than anyone on the team. Producing runs isn't just limited to the number in your RBI column.

  12. #24
    Member Lewdog's Avatar
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    Re: Countdown to 300/300

    Quote Originally Posted by dougdirt View Post
    Color commentators are not experts. The sooner everyone figures that out, the smarter fans are going to become.
    They played the game, and usually it was for quite a long time. Chris Welsh? Sean Casey? Jeff Brantly? All played multiple years in the Majors.

  13. #25
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    Re: Countdown to 300/300

    Quote Originally Posted by Lewdog View Post
    Different positions in the lineup have different jobs and responsibilities expected of them right? You expect a clean up hitter to drive in runs right? You expect a #5 hitter to be almost as the same as a clean up hitter in order to protect the clean hitter and do the same type of thing right? A #3 hitter is supposed to be a contact man that gets hits and moves the runners into scoring position. Getting a ton of walks, especially if you aren't a gazelle on the base paths only sets up the double play and the possibility of the other team getting out of the inning with no runs allowed. Have you ever thought that maybe Phillips is a GIDP machine often times because he has a not so fast Votto sitting at first base? How many times have you heard the color guys say that maybe Dusty should do a hit and run to avoid it? It is what it is.

    Votto doesn't have consistent power and walks too much to be the right #3 guy in the order. Personally, I say next year with Hamilton who can steal a base or two and has the speed to score from first on a double easily, bat Votto second instead of putting .250 hitters like Cozart there and giving away an easy out with the big bats coming to the plate.
    No. No. No. No. No.

    Every hitters job should be: Get on base (OBP) and while you are doing so, acquire as many bases as possible (SLG). The more often you get on base, the more run scoring chances you provide. The more bases you acquire the closer you are to scoring, making it easier for your teammates to help bring you in.

    The whole "this guy bats in this spot so his job is this" is such a limited look at players it hurts. Get on base. Acquire bases. Set your lineup so the guys who get on base the most get the most plate appearances.

    If you go into setting your lineup thinking someone has the job of moving the runners over you wind up costing your team more run scoring chances. It is bad baseball strategy, even if managers have been doing it since the beginning of time.

  14. #26
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    Re: Countdown to 300/300

    Quote Originally Posted by Lewdog View Post
    They played the game, and usually it was for quite a long time. Chris Welsh? Sean Casey? Jeff Brantly? All played multiple years in the Majors.
    That doesn't make them experts on hitting strategy, especially Welsh and Brantley since they never hit. And just because you are good at doing something doesn't mean you know why you were good at it.

  15. #27
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    Re: Votto Hitting verses walking

    Quote Originally Posted by dougdirt View Post
    The job of every hitter is to get on base. If a hitter goes to the plate and isn't trying to get on base, I don't want him going to the plate at all. If you don't make outs, you are going to score runs. Joey Votto produces a ton of runs. More than anyone on the team. Producing runs isn't just limited to the number in your RBI column.
    With all due respect, Choo who has been on base less than Votto, and played in 8 less games, hit only 3 less home runs, has more doubles, and more stolen bases, yet is beating Votto by 5 runs scored. If Choo was hitting third and had the #4 and #5 hitters which are the two highest RBI guys on the team and includes Bruce who leads the team in RBIs and HR's coming to the plate with him on, he would have even more runs.

    Yes Votto is getting on base, but his run total is as much if not more a credit to Bruce coming to bat while he is on base and having one of his best years of his career.

  16. #28
    Member Lewdog's Avatar
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    Re: Countdown to 300/300

    Quote Originally Posted by dougdirt View Post
    That doesn't make them experts on hitting strategy, especially Welsh and Brantley since they never hit. And just because you are good at doing something doesn't mean you know why you were good at it.
    Welsh and Brantley studied hitters constantly. Effective pitchers know just as much about hitting as they do pitching, it's what makes them effective. In war you can't expect to win if you don't know your opponent.

  17. #29
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    Re: Votto Hitting verses walking

    Quote Originally Posted by Lewdog View Post
    With all due respect, Choo who has been on base less than Votto, and played in 8 less games, hit only 3 less home runs, has more doubles, and more stolen bases, yet is beating Votto by 5 runs scored. If Choo was hitting third and had the #4 and #5 hitters which are the two highest RBI guys on the team and includes Bruce who leads the team in RBIs and HR's coming to the plate with him on, he would have even more runs.

    Yes Votto is getting on base, but his run total is as much if not more a credit to Bruce coming to bat while he is on base and having one of his best years of his career.
    Choo has the best hitter on the team batting behind him who moves him over a whole bunch because he also gets on base at an elite level. Votto on the flip side, has generally had an out making machine batting directly behind him this season (Brandon Phillips), who hasn't moved him over all that much because he makes a bunch of outs.

    Joey Votto deserves a lot more credit than anyone for his runs total. Why? Because no one can drive him in if he doesn't first get on base.

  18. #30
    Member Lewdog's Avatar
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    Re: Countdown to 300/300

    Quote Originally Posted by dougdirt View Post
    No. No. No. No. No.

    Every hitters job should be: Get on base (OBP) and while you are doing so, acquire as many bases as possible (SLG). The more often you get on base, the more run scoring chances you provide. The more bases you acquire the closer you are to scoring, making it easier for your teammates to help bring you in.

    The whole "this guy bats in this spot so his job is this" is such a limited look at players it hurts. Get on base. Acquire bases. Set your lineup so the guys who get on base the most get the most plate appearances.

    If you go into setting your lineup thinking someone has the job of moving the runners over you wind up costing your team more run scoring chances. It is bad baseball strategy, even if managers have been doing it since the beginning of time.
    If this is true, then Votto has the highest OBP % so he should be hitting first right? You want the guy that gets on base most to get the most at bats so he can get on base the most? Then to set the line up each night, the coaches should just go down the line based on OBP. I can't say that I have ever seen a lineup set that way. Ever.


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