Another Lineup Construction Thread

[BungleBengals]

Let the groans and eyes roll I am making a lineup construction thread.

I think my idea for a change of lineup will make this team so much more dangerous and as Dusty has done a few times this year, batting lefties back to back is not that bad.

CF Choo
1B Votto
2B Phillips
RF Bruce
LF Ludwick
3B Frazier
SS Cozart
C Mez/Hanigan
P

Obviously, use Billy to PR in key situations. I think this lineup solves a lot of issues fans and 'analysts' have been calling out this year. The Reds are blessed with 2 of the top OBP guys in the league and 2 of the top 4 RBI guys in the league. This lineup would bat them all after each other. This would solve the Buntapolooza issue as Votto is likely walked and the Votto's RBI issue as I think his lack of RBIs would be tolerable if the Reds are scoring more with BP and Bruce knocking them in.

[goreds2]

I like it except maybe bat Cozart in front of Frazier. I like Votto batting in the 2 hole especially after reading ths article. Probably too late to change Dusty's mind though.

http://mlb.mlb.com/news/article.jsp?...s_mlb&c_id=mlb

"Among relatively full-time No. 2 hitters, Joe Mauer, Carlos Beltran, Mike Trout, Jean Segura, Jose Bautista, Jason Kipnis, Manny Machado, Marco Scutaro and Torii Hunter lead the way. Each has an OPS (on-base plus slugging) of at least .755 and has created 5.23 runs or more per 27 outs. Padres catalyst Evert Cabrera has done his best work (.352 average, .906 OPS) in the second spot.

Twenty players occupying the No. 2 role have an OPS of at least .750, with 14 at .800 or higher. Fourteen two-hole hitters have slugging percentages in excess of .450, and 19 are creating at least five runs per 27 outs.

Going back 25 years, in 1988 only Dave Henderson, Claudell Washington, Kevin Seitzer and Johnny Ray reached .800 in OPS out of the two-hole. Three, including Hall of Famer Robin Yount, had slugging marks of .450 or better. Eight created five or more runs per 27 outs."

[dougdirt]

I am completely against a "perfect" lineup that has Brandon Phillips batting anywhere 1-5.

[BungleBengals]

I am completely against a "perfect" lineup that has Brandon Phillips batting anywhere 1-5.

I thought Brandon was doing pretty well before Ludwick came back. Nearly 100 RBIs batting clean up and my lineup basically puts the 2 guys he drove in the most in front of him.

[Norm Chortleton]

I am completely against a "perfect" lineup that has Brandon Phillips batting anywhere 1-5.

Even if we stipulate that you are right and BP is not one of the Reds' top 5 hitters, we are dealing with people and personalities here. If any manager fills out a lineup card with BP hitting 6, 7 or 8 you know darn well he would sull up and his production would be Haniganesque.

[dougdirt]

Even if we stipulate that you are right and BP is not one of the Reds' top 5 hitters, we are dealing with people and personalities here. If any manager fills out a lineup card with BP hitting 6, 7 or 8 you know darn well he would sull up and his production would be Haniganesque.

At some point he will need to get over himself then if he truly would act that way. Or produce better and get moved up.

[Falcon7]

I am completely against a "perfect" lineup that has Brandon Phillips batting anywhere 1-5.

So what do you think, a 100+ rbi hitter should be batting 7, 8, maybe even 9th or just stick his butt on the bench?
Especially since this is a murders row lineup...

[BungleBengals]

I think people are missing the point of the thread. The lineup I introduced was to take advantage of what our players are doing this season.

Choo
Votto
Phillips
Bruce
Ludwick
Frazier
Cozart
Mes/Hanigan
P

I agree that Votto is a great hitter historically, but I think even he would agree that he is not hitting like he used to. His walk rate and ability to get on base is worthless when pitchers are pitching around him to get the next guy out. In my lineup, we have the top 2 guys in the NL as the 1 and 2 hole followed by the 2nd and 4th guys in RBI in NL.

Anyone who has watched the games on FSO should know that BP is Dr. Jekyll and Mr. Hyde with guys on base compared to bases empty. Hitting 3 hole behind Choo and Votto would literally give BP the best chance to bat with guys on base. Having Bruce bat behind him would ensure that he will get strikes thrown to him too. BP performed all year in the 4 hole. Yes his average is cra.p but nearly 100 RBIs from that position cannot be overlooked. Our current lineup has given him no chance to get back to that production. Instead of driving guys in, we are wasting outs on sacrifice bunts.

[RadfordVA]

I think people are missing the point of the thread. The lineup I introduced was to take advantage of what our players are doing this season.

Choo
Votto
Phillips
Bruce
Ludwick
Frazier
Cozart
Mes/Hanigan
P

.

How about this lineup

Votto
Choo
Bruce
Phillips
Cozart
Frazier
Mesoraco
Heisey

Not really a lineup but that is how the Reds players rank in Plate Appearances this season. I found it interesting that while the daily lineups are not what some would like, at the end of the season the best players still are getting the most at bats. Yes they could have more but also maybe the more they had the more they wear down. No one this season has come to plate more than the 3 best hitters.

[PuffyPig]

Anyone who has watched the games on FSO should know that BP is Dr. Jekyll and Mr. Hyde with guys on base compared to bases empty.

He has been this year, but never really has before.

It's likely not a repeatable skill. He certainly hasn't been doing it in September.

[BungleBengals]

He has been this year, but never really has before.

It's likely not a repeatable skill. He certainly hasn't been doing it in September.

That's what I am arguing for. BP is hitting the 2 hole now and more often than not, he is being used to lay down sac bunts instead of driving in runs. If we move him to the 3 hole and Votto to the 2 hole then he will be in positions to get those RBIs. I understand that with Ludwick back we can move BP to the 2 hole now. However, I can't imagine how BP isn't mad or Dusty hasn't noticed that we are using the 4th best RBI leader in the NL with 100+ runs batted in to lay down sac bunts nearly every time he gets to the plate.

My argument is that with Votto in the 2 hole, we will not have to waste that 1 out moving Choo over. Yes, Votto is struggling hitting, but his walk rate and the way teams avoid him would allow for us to have 2 on and no outs. Followed by BP coming to the plate with Bruce on deck. I can definitely see teams pitching around Votto if not intentionally walking him to get to BP. That is pretty much what happened all season when he was batting in the 4 hole and teams challenged him to drive in the runners.

Again, with the season he is having where he is batting very well with runners on, why not move him back into the RBI position he has excelled at? Also, this solves the issue Buntapolooza too. Finally, Votto's RBI numbers will not be questioned as harshly as our main RBI positions will be filled by guys who given chances to get the RBIs instead of the cra.p Votto is forced to try to hit.

[dougdirt]

So what do you think, a 100+ rbi hitter should be batting 7, 8, maybe even 9th or just stick his butt on the bench?
Especially since this is a murders row lineup...

I think a guy who doesn't get on base and doesn't have power should bat 6-8th in a lineup, where exactly depends on the rest of the lineup. Frazier and Phillips aren't much different. Catcher should probably bat 8th in the Reds lineup. Ludwick is a wild card. Ideally, he bats 5th behind Bruce, but I can get Frazier or Phillips right this second in the 5th spot because Ludwick isn't exactly what is expected at this point.

Also, maybe after the season people will realize how good the Reds offense actually was compared to the rest of the league and quit all of the "this offense sucks" stuff. It doesn't. It is quite good.

[Kc61]

I think a guy who doesn't get on base and doesn't have power should bat 6-8th in a lineup, where exactly depends on the rest of the lineup. Frazier and Phillips aren't much different. Catcher should probably bat 8th in the Reds lineup. Ludwick is a wild card. Ideally, he bats 5th behind Bruce, but I can get Frazier or Phillips right this second in the 5th spot because Ludwick isn't exactly what is expected at this point.

Also, maybe after the season people will realize how good the Reds offense actually was compared to the rest of the league and quit all of the "this offense sucks" stuff. It doesn't. It is quite good.

Been having some double post problems today, so I hope this isn't a repeat.

But after the season, absent an offensive spark in the playoffs, I will look at this year's offense as a missed opportunity.

It's very unusual to have the two best OBP men in the league playing day in and day out for the same team. If Votto and Choo got ample support the offense would have been better than the Cards' offense, a scoring machine.

Didn't happen. To be continued.

[AmarilloRed]

It could only happen if there is a new manager. Dusty will put Votto in the 3 spot every time he makes out the lineup.

[Norm Chortleton]

It could only happen if there is a new manager. Dusty will put Votto in the 3 spot every time he makes out the lineup.

True story. Right or wrong, Baker is a believer that the 8 spots in the order are completely different positions, just as the 8 fielders play different positions. He would never for a second consider Votto anywhere but 3 or 4.