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Thread: Another Lineup Construction Thread

  1. #16
    Pimpin...literally!!! dubc47834's Avatar
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    Re: Another Lineup Construction Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by RedEye View Post
    Didn't Jay Bruce bat 2nd for a time and tear it up? Maybe my mind is playing tricks on me. Anyway, if Dusty doesn't want to bat Votto #2, maybe he'd consider Bruce there again. I don't care, really, as long as the top hitters get more PA's.
    I think 2nd or 4th is the best slot for Bruce in any Reds lineup!

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  3. #17
    Member Norm Chortleton's Avatar
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    Re: Another Lineup Construction Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by RedEye View Post
    Didn't Jay Bruce bat 2nd for a time and tear it up? Maybe my mind is playing tricks on me. Anyway, if Dusty doesn't want to bat Votto #2, maybe he'd consider Bruce there again. I don't care, really, as long as the top hitters get more PA's.

    Code:
    Split   	G	GS	PA	AB	R	H	2B	3B	HR	RBI	BB	SO	BA	OBP	SLG	OPS	
    Batting 2nd	25	24	114	98	19	29	5	0	5	17	14	28	.296	.389	.500	.889
    Last edited by Norm Chortleton; 09-26-2013 at 05:12 PM.

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    RedEye (09-26-2013)

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    Re: Another Lineup Construction Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Norm Chortleton View Post
    Code:
    Split   	G	GS	PA	AB	R	H	2B	3B	HR	RBI	BB	SO	BA	OBP	SLG	OPS	
    Batting 2nd	25	24	114	98	19	29	5	0	5	17	14	28	.296	.389	.500	.889
    I don't know who that is, but I do think that either way there isn't enough of a sample size to take those stats as future predictive value. Given the strikeouts, I am guessing it is Bruce?

  6. #19
    Member Norm Chortleton's Avatar
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    Re: Another Lineup Construction Thread

    It's Bruce. RedEye had a post asking about his numbers hitting second. (Original post now edited to reflect that.)

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    RedEye (09-26-2013)

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    Re: Another Lineup Construction Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by RedEye View Post
    It avoids an out. That's a big part of the plan.
    I'm in complete agreement that avoiding outs is a good thing, but at a certain point you have to so more than that if you're the best player on the team. I know, especially at the beginning of the year, votto was being pitched around a great deal. But often times I see him take very hittable pitches that I've seen him hammer in past years then take his base. His ops and OBP are great, but he looks very passive at times and too willing to not hit strikes within the zone. Not making an out is great, it may lead to more runs assuming the lesser hitters behind him can come through, but being agressive towards pitches in the strike zone would make him a more productive player IMO.

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    No half measures, Walter RedEye's Avatar
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    Re: Another Lineup Construction Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Old school 1983 View Post
    I'm in complete agreement that avoiding outs is a good thing, but at a certain point you have to so more than that if you're the best player on the team.
    No. Folks have been round and round on this argument in other threads. It's just not true. If you need further convincing, there is a recent FanGraphs article that refutes your argument about what Joey should be doing by looking at an entire game under a microscope. The conclusion:

    This year, Votto has a league-average rate of swings at pitches in the strike zone. He isn’t looking to walk. He’s looking to hit. He’s just looking to hit what he can hit hard, and his critics should be thankful he doesn’t pay them any attention. The best thing Joey Votto can do for the Reds is just be himself
    Votto knows what he is doing. He's one of the best hitters in baseball. In fact, he's a rare hitter historically who will likely be HOF worthy if he keeps up this approach and stays healthy. He will be an enormous part of any solution the team has moving forward.

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    Re: Another Lineup Construction Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by dougdirt View Post
    The guys behind him don't always make outs. So it adds a base runner. Base runners are good. You want base runners. Base runners lead to scoring.

    Are you watching the games? They are not driving in runs behind him. And he has come through in 1 game in the last month, and that was a solo homer. His biggest highlight before that was a sacrifice fly.

    The key runs are being driven in by Frazier, Cozy, Mes and Choo. Frazier and Mes are kind of like the blind squirrel, but at least they come through occasionally with risp.

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    Re: Another Lineup Construction Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by RedEye View Post
    No. Folks have been round and round on this argument in other threads. It's just not true. If you need further convincing, there is a recent FanGraphs article that refutes your argument about what Joey should be doing by looking at an entire game under a microscope. The conclusion:



    Votto knows what he is doing. He's one of the best hitters in baseball. In fact, he's a rare hitter historically who will likely be HOF worthy if he keeps up this approach and stays healthy. He will be an enormous part of any solution the team has moving forward.
    First off I said Votto is the best player in the team and I agree with your future HOF potential. I had no problem with a single walk in that 5 walk game, or votto walking in general. I have a problem with some of the strikes he takes that are seemingly crushable pitches. The fact of the matter is that all strikes are not created equal. Strikes in the fringes of the strikezone are often pitchers pitches, but in a two strike count you have to swing at them to stay alive. votto, as most great hitters, is a master of this. After taking a very hittable strike right down the heart, he can make his numbers look like he is being agressive by swinging at and fouling off a number of pitchers pitches that are strikes, then drawing a walk. I'm 95% perfectly content with vottos approach. He is a rare talent and has the ability to not only be one if the all time great reds, but all time great players. I just think he could make more productive things than walks happen if he was a little less content to take some very hittable pitches early in the count, only to be forced to swing at more pitchers strikes later. I'm not talking a complete overhaul in approach just a small adjustment.

    And while were in it, maybe the reds should be less concerned with signing a leafiff hitter who barely shows up against lefties and who they have a replacement for in house, in the off season, and more worried about getting someone who hits consistently with power behind votto so more of his walks get translated into runs, and so pitchers will be less apt to walk him.

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    RANDY IN INDY (09-26-2013)

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    Re: Another Lineup Construction Thread

    Pretty much. Let's get better players in the off season. There's not much lineup adjustment that Dusty will realistically do that'll make this current team much better.

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    Re: Another Lineup Construction Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Old school 1983 View Post
    I'm 95% perfectly content with vottos approach. He is a rare talent and has the ability to not only be one if the all time great reds, but all time great players. I just think he could make more productive things than walks happen if he was a little less content to take some very hittable pitches early in the count, only to be forced to swing at more pitchers strikes later. I'm not talking a complete overhaul in approach just a small adjustment.
    I just don't see it. Votto's critics make it sound like this little adjustment should just be so easy. Fact is, he's already a remarkably fine-tuned hitting machine with a very good idea of what he can hit and what he can't. The FanGraphs article also makes a very good case for this. If you are 95% content, my suggestion is you leave well enough alone. Joey is more than fine.

    And while were in it, maybe the reds should be less concerned with signing a leafiff hitter who barely shows up against lefties and who they have a replacement for in house, in the off season, and more worried about getting someone who hits consistently with power behind votto so more of his walks get translated into runs, and so pitchers will be less apt to walk him.
    1) I don't think Hamilton is near ready to be a replacement for Choo. He can play in his spot, sure, but he just isn't going to replace that production by a long shot. We're looking at most likely loss of at least .200 OPS next year with Flash at leadoff. That's going to hurt.

    2) If you believe lineup protection is an important factor, I'd just point out that Bruce is a good in-house option. He barely has LH/RH and even hits tough lefties well (2 HR of Kershaw, for example, in one game).

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    Re: Another Lineup Construction Thread

    Arguing the small details obscures the fact that Votto's an ideal 2 hole hitter for this year's team, given his approach and production. If this was an AL team and a competent manager, there wouldn't be any hesitation about pencicling him in 2nd.
    Rounding third and heading for home...

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    Re: Another Lineup Construction Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by BluegrassRedleg View Post
    Arguing the small details obscures the fact that Votto's an ideal 2 hole hitter for this year's team, given his approach and production. If this was an AL team and a competent manager, there wouldn't be any hesitation about pencicling him in 2nd.
    I don't disagree with this. As long as he's in the top 3, I'm pretty much okay with it. Leadoff would be a little weird, but it would be better than 4th in some ways.

  18. #28
    Member Norm Chortleton's Avatar
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    Re: Another Lineup Construction Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by BluegrassRedleg View Post
    Arguing the small details obscures the fact that Votto's an ideal 2 hole hitter for this year's team, given his approach and production. If this was an AL team and a competent manager, there wouldn't be any hesitation about pencicling him in 2nd.
    You think you're mad now. You'd really be po'd when Votto was ordered to sac bunt 15 times a year. But it'll never happen because Votto in the 2 hole violates so many of Dusty's rules that I can't even list them all here.

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    Re: Another Lineup Construction Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by miamiredskin View Post
    Are you watching the games? They are not driving in runs behind him. And he has come through in 1 game in the last month, and that was a solo homer. His biggest highlight before that was a sacrifice fly.

    The key runs are being driven in by Frazier, Cozy, Mes and Choo. Frazier and Mes are kind of like the blind squirrel, but at least they come through occasionally with risp.
    Bruce is 2nd in RBI's in the NL, Phillips 4th.

    Surely they must be driving in the odd run?

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    dougdirt (09-27-2013), Raisor (09-27-2013), RedEye (09-26-2013)

  22. #30
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    Re: Another Lineup Construction Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by RedEye View Post
    I just don't see it. Votto's critics make it sound like this little adjustment should just be so easy. Fact is, he's already a remarkably fine-tuned hitting machine with a very good idea of what he can hit and what he can't. The FanGraphs article also makes a very good case for this. If you are 95% content, my suggestion is you leave well enough alone. Joey is more than fine.



    1) I don't think Hamilton is near ready to be a replacement for Choo. He can play in his spot, sure, but he just isn't going to replace that production by a long shot. We're looking at most likely loss of at least .200 OPS next year with Flash at leadoff. That's going to hurt.

    2) If you believe lineup protection is an important factor, I'd just point out that Bruce is a good in-house option. He barely has LH/RH and even hits tough lefties well (2 HR of Kershaw, for example, in one game).
    I think votto will return to MVP form. He just seems a little out of whack compared to years previous at the plate. I think being a little more agressive could help. Sometimes it looks like he's out thinking himself. But all and all votto is not an issue. Just think he could be more agressive towards some pitches.

    It's really not a factor if comparing choo to hamilton. It's not fair to both players. They bring very differing skillsets to different aspects of the game. If we expect Hamilton to be choo, we might as well forget it. Our lineup is way too lefty centered. There isn't a single right handed bat id describe as average going forward. I think Phillips is in decline, Frazier is way too hacktasic, and coz art and Mes show signs of occasional growth. Choo is having a career year, and is going to demand top dollar. Our best prospects hitting wise play outfield. I know in the raw numbers there is a .200 difference in ops. Choo cannot be replaced with Hamilton alone. You have to look at the entire team situation. First off Hamilton will make up for some of the slugging difference through steals and he will probably help to increase the ops of players behind him just by distraction value alone leading to mistake pitches. This will bridge part of the gap. Also I have to think ludwick will produce a higher ops than the left field black hole did for most of this year. More gap made up. The key portion to making up Choos lost production will be acquiring a player to fill one of our weaker spots: 3b SS or C. I'd include LF too but it'd have to be a substantial upgrade over ludwick. Like All star quality worth blocking our prospects for and preferably right handed. But find someone to fill one of those spots that could bat 4th and give votto some protection probably boosting his ops a little bit. I know some of these names seemed far fetched but they are rumored to be available this winter. Bautista. Kemp. Tulo. Heck I'd even off the mets a package for wright starting with cueto Phillips and winker just to see what they'd say. I know these guys are expensive, but we are willing to throw that money at choo.

    I understand that people see Bruce as protection but realistically looking at it, he puts up great overall numbers, but he has a tendency to be inconsistent. You can't have a main cog like a 4 hitter being MIA for multiple two to three week stretches. Plus he is left handed. Yes I know he shows good pop versus lefties, but overall he is not the same hitter as against righties.

    So what in saying is let's not get too zeroed in on choo. The way the lineup is set up right now with a lefty in the mound we are practically nuetralized, and with a righty you can walk choo, go after the two hitter, probably get him if not a DP, walk votto, go after whoever hits 4 and get him fairly easily even if it's Bruce on a cold spell or with a loogy later in the game. Don't get hung up on choo. He's a great player great OPS, but it can be made up throughout the lineup. Diversify the attack. Add speed with Hamilton and power outside of GABP with a power righty. This year the team was slow sluggish and in terms of actual good hitters, too left handed.
    Last edited by Old school 1983; 09-26-2013 at 11:09 PM.


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