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Thread: 2013 Bengals Discussion (Part 2)

  1. #121
    Member Oxilon's Avatar
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    Re: 2013 Bengals Discussion (Part 2)

    Dalton's ability to throw medium and deep balls is worrisome. I feel most of his throws are to check down receivers. And when he does go deep, it shows his physical limitations.
    That hit was plenty fair. Atleast by a quarter of an inch.
    -Steve Stone

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  3. #122
    Member cincrazy's Avatar
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    Re: 2013 Bengals Discussion (Part 2)

    Quote Originally Posted by Brutus View Post
    20 of 27 with 212 yards against an undefeated Super Bowl contender, and folks are still trying to criticize the guy.
    The Patriots aren't exactly a juggernaut, and that stat line isn't all that impressive. He didn't get the ball into the endzone. It isn't ALL his problem, and he's not a bad QB per se, but his weaknesses can be easily exploited by good football teams. Hence his struggles against Pitt and Baltimore in his career.

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  5. #123
    Et tu, Brutus? Brutus's Avatar
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    Re: 2013 Bengals Discussion (Part 2)

    Quote Originally Posted by RiverRat13 View Post
    Have anything statistically to back that up?
    I've posted that kind of statistical evidence before in this thread. People have their mind made up and don't care to hear about facts. They just carry on with their own faulty perceptions.

    Not worth digging it up again.
    "No matter how good you are, you're going to lose one-third of your games. No matter how bad you are you're going to win one-third of your games. It's the other third that makes the difference." ~Tommy Lasorda

  6. #124
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    Re: 2013 Bengals Discussion (Part 2)

    Quote Originally Posted by Brutus View Post
    I've posted that kind of statistical evidence before in this thread.
    I seriously doubt you've posted any statistical evidence showing Andy Dalton is a "very good quarterback", unless your definition of very good means he's one of the top 20 QBs in the NFL.

  7. #125
    Et tu, Brutus? Brutus's Avatar
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    Re: 2013 Bengals Discussion (Part 2)

    Quote Originally Posted by RiverRat13 View Post
    I seriously doubt you've posted any statistical evidence showing Andy Dalton is a "very good quarterback", unless your definition of very good means he's one of the top 20 QBs in the NFL.
    Thank you for proving my point.

    Clearly you have your mind made up, stats be damned.
    "No matter how good you are, you're going to lose one-third of your games. No matter how bad you are you're going to win one-third of your games. It's the other third that makes the difference." ~Tommy Lasorda

  8. #126
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    Re: 2013 Bengals Discussion (Part 2)

    Quote Originally Posted by cincrazy View Post
    The Patriots aren't exactly a juggernaut, and that stat line isn't all that impressive. He didn't get the ball into the endzone. It isn't ALL his problem, and he's not a bad QB per se, but his weaknesses can be easily exploited by good football teams. Hence his struggles against Pitt and Baltimore in his career.
    Good grief, the Patriots came into the game allowing 14 points a game and had given up just five offensive touchdowns in four games. They were undefeated for a reason.

    It is amazing at how difficult it is for people to say those three simple words:

    "he played well."

    or

    "give him credit."

    It's amazing how stubborn people can be. It's OK to admit it rather than trying to find something negative to say everytime someone compliments him.
    "No matter how good you are, you're going to lose one-third of your games. No matter how bad you are you're going to win one-third of your games. It's the other third that makes the difference." ~Tommy Lasorda

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  10. #127
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    Re: 2013 Bengals Discussion (Part 2)

    Quote Originally Posted by Brutus View Post
    Thank you for proving my point.

    Clearly you have your mind made up, stats be damned.
    QBR:

    '11: 20th in the league
    '12: 22nd in the league
    '13: 16th in the league.

    Football Outsider's DYAR:

    '11: 12th in the league
    '12: 20th in the league
    '13: 24th in the league (will go up after today)

    Advancednflstats.com's Win Probability Added:

    '11: 25th in the league
    '12: 30th in the league
    '13: 16th in the league

    And even though it is the RBI/BA of QB metrics, I'll throw out Passer Rating:

    '11: 20th in the league
    '12: 13th in the league
    '13: 21st in the league

    Those enough stats for you?
    Last edited by RiverRat13; 10-06-2013 at 10:57 PM.

  11. #128
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    Re: 2013 Bengals Discussion (Part 2)

    Andy Dalton is a mediocre QB. The Bengals had a huge win today. With a better QB and better coaching (other than Zimmer) this team would be a legitimate Super Bowl threat.

    Maybe they still are anyway. When you have a front four that good, anything is possible. Just ask the '08 Giants.
    Go BLUE!!!

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  13. #129
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    Re: 2013 Bengals Discussion (Part 2)

    I'm thrilled with the win today and all teams make errors but do you realize that we had 4 blatant mistakes where we were almost trying to hand victory to the Pats after we'd outplayed them so?

    Consider:

    1) Peko starts about 2 secs too soon on 2nd and goal from the half yardline. Such a mistake is often times a drive killer

    2) We're dominating the line of scrimmage and doing serious damage to the clock and the only thing that can derail us is a fumble and that's exactly what Gio does

    3) It's 4th down and the Pats are through unless they get a first. It's raining like a monsoon. Brady can't grip the ball well enough to even throw it ten yds, let alone get a first and Crocker is blatantly off sides. How does that happen?

    4) Once again, the rain is making it nearly impossible to complete a pass and we rough Brady

    NE didn't make any of those kinds of errors yet still lost by a TD. Dalton and his issues aside, do you realize how good we'd be if not for dumb play?

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  15. #130
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    Re: 2013 Bengals Discussion (Part 2)

    Quote Originally Posted by Oxilon View Post
    Dalton's ability to throw medium and deep balls is worrisome. I feel most of his throws are to check down receivers. And when he does go deep, it shows his physical limitations.
    Not top defend Dalton, but seriously, that's today's NFL. Look at guys like Peyton and even Brady aside from today. Their bread and butter are dumpoffs to their TEs and RBs and then they hit the occasional deep ball. Brady hasn't even had a deep threat since Randy Moss left

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  17. #131
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    Re: 2013 Bengals Discussion (Part 2)

    Quote Originally Posted by Sea Ray View Post
    I'm thrilled with the win today and all teams make errors but do you realize that we had 4 blatant mistakes where we were almost trying to hand victory to the Pats after we'd outplayed them so?

    Consider:

    1) Peko starts about 2 secs too soon on 2nd and goal from the half yardline. Such a mistake is often times a drive killer

    2) We're dominating the line of scrimmage and doing serious damage to the clock and the only thing that can derail us is a fumble and that's exactly what Gio does

    3) It's 4th down and the Pats are through unless they get a first. It's raining like a monsoon. Brady can't grip the ball well enough to even throw it ten yds, let alone get a first and Crocker is blatantly off sides. How does that happen?

    4) Once again, the rain is making it nearly impossible to complete a pass and we rough Brady

    NE didn't make any of those kinds of errors yet still lost by a TD. Dalton and his issues aside, do you realize how good we'd be if not for dumb play?
    Three notes:

    1. Pats 0 Penalties? Saw them holding quite a bit but they never get called for it.

    2. Gio's fumble was caused by a helmet hitting the ball. Pretty tough to hold onto it when that happens. I don't put that one on him. It was just a good play on D. I'd view it differently if he'd gotten stripped or just lost it.

    3. The roughing the passer call was a soft call.

    Peko's mistake, although dumb, had little impact. Crocker's mistake was the one I felt could have doomed them.
    Burn down the disco. Hang the blessed DJ. Because the music that he constantly plays, it says nothing to me about my life.

  18. #132
    Pre-tty, pre-tty good!! MWM's Avatar
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    Re: 2013 Bengals Discussion (Part 2)

    Quote Originally Posted by Brutus View Post
    It's amazing how stubborn people can be.
    Or maybe people just disagree with your assessment.
    Grape works as a soda. Sort of as a gum. I wonder why it doesn't work as a pie. Grape pie? There's no grape pie. - Larry David

  19. #133
    Et tu, Brutus? Brutus's Avatar
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    Re: 2013 Bengals Discussion (Part 2)

    Quote Originally Posted by RiverRat13 View Post
    QBR:

    '11: 20th in the league
    '12: 22nd in the league
    '13: 16th in the league.

    Football Outsider's DYAR:

    '11: 12th in the league
    '12: 20th in the league
    '13: 24th in the league (will go up after today)

    Advancednflstats.com's Win Probability Added:

    '11: 25th in the league
    '12: 30th in the league
    '13: 16th in the league

    And even though it is the RBI/BA of QB metrics, I'll throw out Passer Rating:

    '11: 20th in the league
    '12: 13th in the league
    '13: 21st in the league

    Those enough stats for you?
    That is absolutely faulty logic. You have it completely backwards... QBR is too much like RBIs because it penalties (or rewards) quarterbacks solely based on team context. Unlike QBR, passer rating is utterly and totally independent of situation or team context. That said, passer rating is something of an arbitrary formula that sounded good when it was made and hasn't really ever been stacked up against anything worthwhile. But it does have merit.

    Studies have shown that passer rating alone predicts the winner of NFL games in about 80 percent of all games. Here is a great summation of the stat:

    http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/201...ing/index.html

    QBR is a stat that was compiled to try and please the sabermetric crowd in football... except that it's deeply flawed.

    Here is a good article that shreds the QBR stat:

    http://sports.yahoo.com/nfl/blog/shu...urn=nfl,wp9534
    "No matter how good you are, you're going to lose one-third of your games. No matter how bad you are you're going to win one-third of your games. It's the other third that makes the difference." ~Tommy Lasorda

  20. #134
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    Re: 2013 Bengals Discussion (Part 2)

    Quote Originally Posted by MWM View Post
    Or maybe people just disagree with your assessment.
    Andy Dalton, in his first two seasons in the league, led the Bengals to a playoff appearance. Check out how many quarterbacks have done that in franchise history, let alone their first two in the league, and get back to me. And barring something drastic, he's likely to be there a third straight time in his first three NFL seasons.

    It's absolutely absurd at how many people complain about this franchise, especially given its history, and when the Bengals get a solid young quarterback in there that is going to wind up leading the team to three straight playoff appearances, that's not good enough and people are still complaining because he's not a superstar.
    "No matter how good you are, you're going to lose one-third of your games. No matter how bad you are you're going to win one-third of your games. It's the other third that makes the difference." ~Tommy Lasorda

  21. #135
    Hisssssssss Yachtzee's Avatar
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    Re: 2013 Bengals Discussion (Part 2)

    I almost think Dalton is the flipside of Carson Palmer. Palmer has all the talent in the world, but constantly makes poor decisions when faced with adversity. It seemed like whenever he was called on to make the game winning drive, he'd fall apart or throw an interception. Meanwhile, Andy Dalton can be ineffective at times, but can usually be good enough to get enough points on the board to win more than lose. Today was the first time he's thrown an interception in the red zone. That's saying something.

    I'd say what I like about Dalton is that he's out there trying all the time, which to me has been a nice change from Palmer, who seemed to fold up his tent when things weren't going his way. So for now I appreciate him for what he is and don't harp on him for what he isn't.
    Burn down the disco. Hang the blessed DJ. Because the music that he constantly plays, it says nothing to me about my life.

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