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Thread: Now the 2 hole is a black hole.

  1. #1
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    Now the 2 hole is a black hole.

    Batting #1 in 2012(#30 in AVG, #30 in OBP, #29 in SLG, #30 in OPS)


    Batting #1 in 2013(#5 in AVG, #1 in OBP, #1 in SLG, #1 in OPS)


    Batting #2 in 2012(#16 in AVG, #22 in OBP, #14 in SLG, #18 in OPS)


    Batting #2 in 2013(#30 in AVG, #30 in OBP, #26 in SLG, #28 in OPS)

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  3. #2
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    Re: Now the 2 hole is a black hole.

    I don't think it's a matter of lineup construction as much as it is the fact that the Reds just do not have enough good hitters.

    There's been talk about the Reds' offense being inconsistent in the macro level (i.e., 12 runs today, shut out tomorrow) but I think the actual analysis shows that is normal for MLB teams.

    There is no question, however, that the Reds offense is enormously dependent on a handful of players. Votto (.435) and Choo (.429) were elite on-base men this year. But after those two, the next best Reds regular is Bruce at .329 (Paul is the only bench guy above .330). Beyond that, you have Hanigan and Mesoraco hovering around .300, Phillips and Frazier around .310, Cozart at .284, and nothing in left field whatsoever.

    In the macro sense, as this season's RS totals indicate, this is fine. Bunching good hitters tends to maximize runs, so if Choo and Votto bat together in multiple innings the Reds have a great chance to score. But in a one-game scenario against a pitcher that completely neutralizes one of those guys, it's a big problem.

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    dabvu2498 (09-30-2013), Fil3232 (09-30-2013), Kc61 (09-30-2013), LexRedsFan (09-30-2013), Old school 1983 (09-30-2013), oneupper (09-30-2013), oregonred (10-01-2013), wolfboy (09-30-2013)

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    Moderator RedlegJake's Avatar
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    Re: Now the 2 hole is a black hole.

    BP and his .716 OPS look a lot better there. A healthy Ludwick batting 4th carried a ton of this year's hopes and Walt's decision that a patchwork platoon would suffice was a big misjudgement. Then he misjudged again, imo, later on, when he decided Lud would return to form sufficiently to pass on Byrd. BP in the 2 hole all season, means Cozart in the 7-8 hole all year as well. Maybe he doesn't press as much and gets to the form he showed late that much sooner. Devastating injury for the Reds season overall. Walt's decisions to try and ride it out (twice) awaiting Ludwick were just as costly - especially after Heisey went down and they lost their sole RH power bat from the bench. Still no acquisition. I've always defended Walt but hindsight kicks his tail in this case.
    No - I am not from State Farm!

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    Re: Now the 2 hole is a black hole.

    just think if Walt did his job and claimed Byrd??? then Byrd bats 4th or 2nd and this offense looks a heck of alot better..

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    OnBaseMachine (09-30-2013)

  8. #5
    * Bat Votto Second * goreds2's Avatar
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    Re: Now the 2 hole is a black hole.

    * Bat Votto second *
    * Attended the 1990 and 2010 Reds Division clinchers *

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    Re: Now the 2 hole is a black hole.

    Quote Originally Posted by goreds2 View Post
    * Bat Votto second *
    Then who bats third?

    I believe it is as was stated earlier...there just weren't enough quality bats for most of this season. Once Ludwick was hurt and the FO knew it was going to be a long term recovery there needed to be a move made to get a proven RH bat. Something should have been done, and that's on Walt ultimately I suppose.

    Now, who is to say he wasn't trying his hardest to make something happen? We don't know. But boy do I hope the FO was trying and just didn't have what it took to get a deal done. Because if they thought they could get by with the 3-headed monster (four-headed if you count the Lutz experiment) in left field...well, we all know how that turned out.

    One thing is for certain, batting Ludwick in the 2 hole was and is not a good idea. Hopefully, he gets moved down to 6 or so for Tuesday (if he starts).

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    Re: Now the 2 hole is a black hole.



    Shin-Soo Choo: 0.36(107/300)

    Beltran hitting behind Carpenter.
    Craig hitting behind Holliday.
    The worst hitter of the Reds hitting behind Choo

  12. #8
    The Boss dougdirt's Avatar
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    Re: Now the 2 hole is a black hole.

    Quote Originally Posted by dsmith421 View Post
    I don't think it's a matter of lineup construction as much as it is the fact that the Reds just do not have enough good hitters.
    Of course it is a matter of lineup construction. The Reds have enough good hitters to not hit like Corky Miller in the #2 spot. If we were talking about the 6th spot, sure, that could be a talent problem. But not the #2 spot.

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    Kingspoint (09-30-2013)

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    Re: Now the 2 hole is a black hole.

    Quote Originally Posted by dougdirt View Post
    Of course it is a matter of lineup construction. The Reds have enough good hitters to not hit like Corky Miller in the #2 spot. If we were talking about the 6th spot, sure, that could be a talent problem. But not the #2 spot.
    OK, so let's assume Choo is 1 and Votto 3. Every option for the two spot is sub-optimal because the team doesn't have a single RH hitting regular with an OBP over .320. That's the problem. There are no good options. This year they've tried pretty much everyone there and they've all stunk.

    Or you hit Votto second, how you've got the same rogue's gallery to hit third.

    I suppose it's possible to go Choo-Votto-Bruce but that makes life awful easy on the opposing manager.

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    Old school 1983 (09-30-2013)

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    The Boss dougdirt's Avatar
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    Re: Now the 2 hole is a black hole.

    Quote Originally Posted by dsmith421 View Post
    OK, so let's assume Choo is 1 and Votto 3. Every option for the two spot is sub-optimal because the team doesn't have a single RH hitting regular with an OBP over .320. That's the problem. There are no good options.

    Or you hit Votto second, how you've got the same rogue's gallery to hit third.

    I suppose it's possible to go Choo-Votto-Bruce but that makes life awful easy on the opposing manager.
    The guy doesn't have to be right handed. There is your problem.

    Choo-Votto-Bruce doesn't make anything easy. They are easily the teams three best hitters. Votto and Bruce both hit lefties decently enough (better than most of the team hits righties, but it is ok to bat them wherever for some reason). Stop worrying about what may happen at some point and worry about what will absolutely happen. What will absolutely happen is that you get your three best hitters a platoon advantage in 80% of the games they play against the starting pitcher.

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    BluegrassRedleg (09-30-2013)

  18. #11
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    Re: Now the 2 hole is a black hole.

    If choo stays or goes, I maintain the reds need to find a legitimate right handed bat added to the lineup so that better players can be stacked and not minimized by a loogy. If choo stays look for a two or four hitter to stack between choo and votto or votto and Bruce. If he goes find a 4 hitter you can stack between Bruce and votto.

  19. #12
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    Re: Now the 2 hole is a black hole.

    Quote Originally Posted by dougdirt View Post
    Stop worrying about what may happen at some point and worry about what will absolutely happen. What will absolutely happen is that you get your three best hitters a platoon advantage in 80% of the games they play against the starting pitcher.
    I agree with that but the reality is that those making the decisions do not.

  20. #13
    Member Mitri's Avatar
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    Re: Now the 2 hole is a black hole.

    Choo
    Frazier
    Votto
    Bruce
    Ludwick
    Phillips

  21. #14
    The Boss dougdirt's Avatar
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    Re: Now the 2 hole is a black hole.

    Quote Originally Posted by dsmith421 View Post
    I agree with that but the reality is that those making the decisions do not.
    And that is exactly why is it a lineup construction problem and not a lack of talent problem. Like I said in the first place.

  22. #15
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    Re: Now the 2 hole is a black hole.

    Quote Originally Posted by dougdirt View Post
    Of course it is a matter of lineup construction. The Reds have enough good hitters to not hit like Corky Miller in the #2 spot. If we were talking about the 6th spot, sure, that could be a talent problem. But not the #2 spot.
    Let's start with a very basic proposition. The definition of "good."

    Good, in my view, means better than average. It is a positive term. Good. Better than usual.

    It doesn't mean "had potential in the minors."

    It doesn't mean, well, the guy isn't terrible. Or he once had a good year in the past.

    It means the person is above average, at minimum.

    I don't think it's very easy to come up with a "good" number two hitter unless you put Votto there.
    Last edited by Kc61; 09-30-2013 at 01:56 PM.


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