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Thread: Now the 2 hole is a black hole.

  1. #16
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    Re: Now the 2 hole is a black hole.

    Quote Originally Posted by dougdirt View Post
    And that is exactly why is it a lineup construction problem and not a lack of talent problem. Like I said in the first place.
    You don't think there's a talent issue when there are three regulars on the team with an OBP over .315 and no help on the bench?

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  3. #17
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    Re: Now the 2 hole is a black hole.

    Quote Originally Posted by Mitri View Post
    Choo
    Frazier
    Votto
    Bruce
    Ludwick
    Phillips
    If you like .234 hitters with a .314 OBP hitting second, sure. And he may be the best candidate.

    These guys other than the big three may be good hitters, but in 2013, I don't know.
    Last edited by Kc61; 09-30-2013 at 03:05 PM.

  4. #18
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    Re: Now the 2 hole is a black hole.

    IMO the lineup should be:

    Choo
    Hamilton
    Votto
    Phillips
    Bruce
    Frazier
    Cozart
    Mesoraco

    When Choo leaves Reds are in trouble.

    It will be :

    Hamilton
    Phillips
    Votto
    ?
    Bruce
    Frazier
    Mesoraco
    Cozart

  5. #19
    breath westofyou's Avatar
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    Re: Now the 2 hole is a black hole.

    810 Runs a season was the average for teams in 1999-2000, this year it's 651, numbers like that create holes in lineups, whether you are looking for a #2 with this group or lining up the 3 above average LH guys in hope of having 1 big inning a game.

  6. #20
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    Re: Now the 2 hole is a black hole.

    Quote Originally Posted by Red Swagger View Post
    IMO the lineup should be:

    Choo
    Hamilton
    Votto
    Phillips
    Bruce
    Frazier
    Cozart
    Mesoraco

    When Choo leaves Reds are in trouble.

    It will be :

    Hamilton
    Phillips
    Votto
    Ludwick
    Bruce
    Frazier
    Mesoraco
    Cozart
    Has to be - they're paying him too much for him not to be.

  7. #21
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    Re: Now the 2 hole is a black hole.

    This season was a cruel tease. I've wanted high-OBP guys at the top of the order for years - we get Choo at the top of the order for one season and now its back to CF-SS both struggling to see a .290 OBP

  8. #22
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    Re: Now the 2 hole is a black hole.

    Quote Originally Posted by westofyou View Post
    810 Runs a season was the average for teams in 1999-2000, this year it's 651, numbers like that create holes in lineups, whether you are looking for a #2 with this group or lining up the 3 above average LH guys in hope of having 1 big inning a game.
    Well, three good hitters back-to-back-to-back gets you three runs. Call it a big inning, but it's not exactly an explosion.

    I don't view the drop off in runs since 1999 as much of an excuse.

    Look, Ludwick got hurt and the others (beyond the big three) didn't hit well. The Reds will have to evaluate and decide who shall stay and who shall go.

    But for this year, there's no great solution particularly with Liriano a lefty tough on lefty hitters. Thankfully with Choo and Votto the Reds will mount some threats from here on out and do function as a reasonable offense.

    Some of the guys have offensive talent maybe they will get hot in the playoffs. But ultimately there are (as a poster said recently) just too many rest stops in the lineup. I don't see how batting order cures it, maybe helps here and there or possibly hurts here and there.
    Last edited by Kc61; 09-30-2013 at 03:15 PM.

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  10. #23
    5.3 Posts Abv Replacement BluegrassRedleg's Avatar
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    Re: Now the 2 hole is a black hole.

    Quote Originally Posted by dougdirt View Post
    The guy doesn't have to be right handed. There is your problem.

    Choo-Votto-Bruce doesn't make anything easy. They are easily the teams three best hitters. Votto and Bruce both hit lefties decently enough (better than most of the team hits righties, but it is ok to bat them wherever for some reason). Stop worrying about what may happen at some point and worry about what will absolutely happen. What will absolutely happen is that you get your three best hitters a platoon advantage in 80% of the games they play against the starting pitcher.
    Spot on.
    Rounding third and heading for home...

  11. #24
    breath westofyou's Avatar
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    Re: Now the 2 hole is a black hole.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kc61 View Post
    Well, three good hitters back-to-back-to-back gets you three runs. Call it a big inning, but it's not exactly an explosion.

    I don't view the drop off in runs since 1999 as much of an excuse.

    Look, Ludwick got hurt and the others (beyond the big three) didn't hit well. The Reds will have to evaluate and decide who shall stay and who shall go.

    But for this year, there's no great solution particularly with Liriano a lefty tough on lefty hitters. Thankfully with Choo and Votto the Reds will mount some threats from here on out and do function as a reasonable offense.

    Some of the guys have offensive talent maybe they will get hot in the playoffs. But ultimately there are (as a poster said recently) just too many rest stops in the lineup. I don't see how batting order cures it, maybe helps here and there or possibly hurts here and there.
    But it is, look around league wide in 1999 58 guys had at least a .350 OB% (400 ab's) this year just 27.

    I see this being a problem that many need to get used to moving forward, but I also agree that no change in the batting order is going to be the magic ticket

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  13. #25
    The Boss dougdirt's Avatar
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    Re: Now the 2 hole is a black hole.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kc61 View Post

    I don't think it's very easy to come up with a "good" number two hitter unless you put Votto there.
    The Reds have three of those guys. That means you can bat them 1-2-3. The two spot is an issue because of lineup construction. If the Reds hit Bruce/Votto/Choo in any given order 1-2-3, they would not have an issue with any of those spots. That means it is a lineup construction issue, not a personnel issue.

  14. #26
    The Boss dougdirt's Avatar
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    Re: Now the 2 hole is a black hole.

    Quote Originally Posted by dsmith421 View Post
    You don't think there's a talent issue when there are three regulars on the team with an OBP over .315 and no help on the bench?
    When it comes to the #2 spot being an issue, no, I don't. The Reds have three very capable hitters who could bat 1-2-3 in the lineup and be good at that spot in it. We are talking about the #2 spot. The Reds have several guys qualified to hit there. They just refuse to hit any of them there. Talent problem it is not.

  15. #27
    Member Old school 1983's Avatar
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    Re: Now the 2 hole is a black hole.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kc61 View Post
    Let's start with a very basic proposition. The definition of "good."

    Good, in my view, means better than average. It is a positive term. Good. Better than usual.

    It doesn't mean "had potential in the minors."

    It doesn't mean, well, the guy isn't terrible. Or he once had a good year in the past.

    It means the person is above average, at minimum.

    I don't think it's very easy to come up with a "good" number two hitter unless you put Votto there.
    Yes and if choo comes back or even right now a loogy will make both of them weaker offensive players. Dusty has always shown a tendency to stagger lefties. None of the reds right handed hitters are what you would or I would define as good. Phillips RBI ability is the only thing I could say was good about a right handed hitter this year and that is probably a factor of his his RISP average and choo and vottos OBP. Other than that the righties are inconsistent at best. It creates a situation where it's far to easy to pitch around our good hitters. We need a good right handed bat regardless if choo comes back or not in my opinion. Good if he returns at least good if he doesn't.

  16. #28
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    Re: Now the 2 hole is a black hole.

    Quote Originally Posted by dougdirt View Post
    The Reds have three of those guys. That means you can bat them 1-2-3. The two spot is an issue because of lineup construction. If the Reds hit Bruce/Votto/Choo in any given order 1-2-3, they would not have an issue with any of those spots. That means it is a lineup construction issue, not a personnel issue.
    I think some of us may be thinking that solving the number 2 problem in this manner creates a number 4-9 problem which may not be worth it.

    So we see the issue as lack of enough hitters.

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  18. #29
    The Boss dougdirt's Avatar
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    Re: Now the 2 hole is a black hole.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kc61 View Post
    I think some of us may be thinking that solving the number 2 problem in this manner creates a number 4-9 problem which may not be worth it.

    So we see the issue as lack of enough hitters.
    I can agree that it would create a problem there, but that isn't what the discussion was really about.

  19. #30
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    Re: Now the 2 hole is a black hole.

    Quote Originally Posted by westofyou View Post
    But it is, look around league wide in 1999 58 guys had at least a .350 OB% (400 ab's) this year just 27.

    I see this being a problem that many need to get used to moving forward, but I also agree that no change in the batting order is going to be the magic ticket
    Of the eight positions (not pitcher) on the diamond, the Reds are below average at five of them in OPS in the NL.

    Only three of the Reds eight positions are manned by average or above average OPS hitters.

    I don't think this is something fans need to get used to. We can expect league average performance at the non-star positions.

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