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Thread: Dat Dude:"We need to put our pride aside and play smallball!

  1. #46
    No half measures, Walter RedEye's Avatar
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    Re: Dat Dude:"We need to put our pride aside and play smallball!

    Quote Originally Posted by James B. View Post
    Its a shame that people want to jump on everything Phillips says. He is exactly right in what he is saying. This game will probably come down to the team that can execute the little things.
    I suppose it depends on how you read "small ball." It could mean concentrating on fundamentals like fielding, taking the extra base, whatever. However, given that BP also said that the Reds would need to "put [their] pride aside", I took that to mean pretty much two things -- bunting and productive outs. Because those other things in small ball don't really involve pride in the same way.

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    Member icehole3's Avatar
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    Re: Dat Dude:"We need to put our pride aside and play smallball!

    I didn't intend for this to be such a negative thread, but if they lay down 8 straight bunt hits and win I'm all for winning.

  5. #48
    No half measures, Walter RedEye's Avatar
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    Re: Dat Dude:"We need to put our pride aside and play smallball!

    Quote Originally Posted by icehole3 View Post
    I didn't intend for this to be such a negative thread, but if they lay down 8 straight bunt hits and win I'm all for winning.
    I think we can safely assume that this would never happen. But listen, these are two different arguments:

    "Win at all costs"

    "Win by bunting and getting productive outs"

    I agree with the former and disagree with the latter.

  6. #49
    Waitin til next year bucksfan2's Avatar
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    Re: Dat Dude:"We need to put our pride aside and play smallball!

    Quote Originally Posted by RedEye View Post
    He basically said in one game you throw out all the knowledge we have about run production. That's an absurd claim. You play the percentages situationally.
    What do we really know about run production when you look at 3 out segments? HR's are the best but other than that nothing guarantees a run. You could win a game 1-0 with a double play scoring the 1 run. You could have an inning where and out scores 2 runs and you win by two.

    Situation baseball is often what wins playoff games. Getting big hits when the situation dictates. To assume that we know what will win the game or how the game will be won is absurd.

  7. #50
    Waitin til next year bucksfan2's Avatar
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    Re: Dat Dude:"We need to put our pride aside and play smallball!

    Quote Originally Posted by RedEye View Post
    I think we can safely assume that this would never happen. But listen, these are two different arguments:

    "Win at all costs"

    "Win by bunting and getting productive outs"

    I agree with the former and disagree with the latter.
    Why won't that happen? Your assumption is that its best to avoid all outs, never sacrifice. Problem is outs routinely happen. I have never see a game stopped because one team failed to get an out. Have you? So if you are given a precious 27 outs in a game, why not make sure you make best use of them?

  8. #51
    No half measures, Walter RedEye's Avatar
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    Re: Dat Dude:"We need to put our pride aside and play smallball!

    Quote Originally Posted by bucksfan2 View Post
    Why won't that happen? Your assumption is that its best to avoid all outs, never sacrifice. Problem is outs routinely happen. I have never see a game stopped because one team failed to get an out. Have you? So if you are given a precious 27 outs in a game, why not make sure you make best use of them?
    My assumption -- based on the data we have -- is that bunting/productive outs are usually not a smart strategy to use. Yes, there are exceptions -- when the pitcher is up, when you are playing for one run in a late inning/sudden death situation, etc. But those are exceptions, not an all-inclusive strategy. Given what we've seen from the Reds lately (buntapalooza) I worry that BP means that the Reds best hitters are going to go up there bunting.

    I think we are safe in saying the Reds would never lay down eight bunts in a row, yes.
    Last edited by RedEye; 10-01-2013 at 12:52 PM.

  9. #52
    No half measures, Walter RedEye's Avatar
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    Re: Dat Dude:"We need to put our pride aside and play smallball!

    Quote Originally Posted by bucksfan2 View Post
    What do we really know about run production when you look at 3 out segments? HR's are the best but other than that nothing guarantees a run. You could win a game 1-0 with a double play scoring the 1 run. You could have an inning where and out scores 2 runs and you win by two.

    Situation baseball is often what wins playoff games. Getting big hits when the situation dictates. To assume that we know what will win the game or how the game will be won is absurd.
    We don't know what will win the game, that's right. We do know what strategies tend to lead to more run scoring though. Small ball (read: bunting and productive outs) is not one of them save for specific situations.

  10. #53
    No half measures, Walter RedEye's Avatar
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    Re: Dat Dude:"We need to put our pride aside and play smallball!

    Quote Originally Posted by bucksfan2 View Post
    So if you are given a precious 27 outs in a game, why not make sure you make best use of them?
    I agree that the 27 outs are precious. That's why in most situations you do not sacrifice one to be "productive."

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    Larkin Fan (10-01-2013)

  12. #54
    RaisorZone Raisor's Avatar
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    Re: Dat Dude:"We need to put our pride aside and play smallball!

    Small ball in the playoffs is partially a result of the better pitching but its also a result of managers wanting more say in the outcomes of the games.

    Station to station ball largely stays out of a manager's hands.
    "But I do know Joey's sister indirectly (or foster sister) and I have heard stories of Joey being into shopping, designer wear, fancy coffees, and pedicures."

  13. #55
    Member Old school 1983's Avatar
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    Re: Dat Dude:"We need to put our pride aside and play smallball!

    In a one game situation I really don't care how the reds outscore the pirates, just that they outscore them. What most strongly correlates to run scoring during the long haul of the season with average to below average pitching factored in, may mean very little in a one game playoff against top notch pitching. You may win one to nothing on a combination of errors and productive outs. It may factor in too, and I wouldn't go with a small ball approach every at bat, but when a situation calls for it, get the run in. Point being push across runs by any means possible because maximum outcomes are harder to come by against top quality pitching.

  14. #56
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    Re: Dat Dude:"We need to put our pride aside and play smallball!

    God help us.

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    *BaseClogger* (10-01-2013), icehole3 (10-01-2013), RANDY IN INDY (10-01-2013), Wonderful Monds (10-01-2013)

  16. #57
    No half measures, Walter RedEye's Avatar
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    Re: Dat Dude:"We need to put our pride aside and play smallball!

    Quote Originally Posted by Old school 1983 View Post
    In a one game situation I really don't care how the reds outscore the pirates, just that they outscore them.
    No one could disagree with this.

    What most strongly correlates to run scoring during the long haul of the season with average to below average pitching factored in, may mean very little in a one game playoff against top notch pitching.
    But still, the odds are the odds. No matter who is pitching, giving up an out to move a runner to second is going to reduce your chances of scoring more than one run. If you only need one run, then yes, perhaps a sacrifice is in play. But those situations are the exception, not the rule.

    Certainly there are situational elements to factor in for a particular game, but there are also certain general rules to follow. If we can agree to that, then we can stop overinterpreting BP's relatively mundane platitude now.
    Last edited by RedEye; 10-01-2013 at 12:51 PM.

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    Re: Dat Dude:"We need to put our pride aside and play smallball!

    Quote Originally Posted by Todd Gack View Post
    Who was our best hitter in crucial situations this year?
    Don't you know by now, that if a certain player on this team is not good at it, it just doesn't matter...
    Last edited by Falcon7; 10-01-2013 at 03:18 PM.

  18. #59
    Haunted by walks
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    Re: Dat Dude:"We need to put our pride aside and play smallball!

    With Liriano vs. Cueto, you may have no choice. But if Ondrusek gives up three in the sixth, all the small ball is for naught.

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  20. #60
    Member ervinsm84's Avatar
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    Re: Dat Dude:"We need to put our pride aside and play smallball!

    You have one free roll bet to win a large sum playing one hand of blackjack.

    Do you throw out every thing you know about strategy when you get dealt 20 with the dealer showing 6?

    After all, dealer could get a 5 then a 10 which beats your 20.
    Newsflash!

    Joey Votto does not care about RBI.

    NEITHER SHOULD ANY OF US


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